Why do clerics turn undead?

[welby]

I'm trying to build an arcane necromancer, and it seems that the key thing they miss is the ability to turn (or in my case rebuke/command) undead. I looked at UA's generic classes hoping to build an arcane rubuker, and sure enough, the prereq for turning is divine spells. So, besides the "it has and always will be that way in D&D" or "Because it comes from their God" reasons, why is turning limited to divine casters?

If divine casters lost this ability, would they be underpowered? I think not.
If arcane casters gained this ability, would they be overpowered? Again, probably not.

Not to make this a clerics vs. mage rant, but

Clerics
Good HD
Armor
All spells known
Healing Spells
Turning
Combat Proficiency
Few damage spells

Wizards
Awful HD
No armor
two spells known per level + scribing costs
No Healing
No Turning
Awful Combat Proficiency
Lots of damage spells

Would you allow an arcane caster to turn undead as an equal level cleric in your campaign, and at what cost?

 

[apsuman]

I'm trying to build an arcane necromancer, and it seems that the key thing they miss is the ability to turn (or in my case rebuke/command) undead. I looked at UA's generic classes hoping to build an arcane rubuker, and sure enough, the prereq for turning is divine spells. So, besides the "it has and always will be that way in D&D" or "Because it comes from their God" reasons, why is turning limited to divine casters?

If divine casters lost this ability, would they be underpowered? I think not.
If arcane casters gained this ability, would they be overpowered? Again, probably not.

Not to make this a clerics vs. mage rant, but

Clerics
Good HD
Armor
All spells known
Awful Spells
Healing Spells
Turning
Combat Proficiency
Few damage spells

Wizards
Awful HD
No armor
two spells known per level + scribing costs
The most awsome spells in the game
No Healing
No Turning
Awful Combat Proficiency
Lots of damage spells
Bonus Feats

Would you allow an arcane caster to turn undead as an equal level cleric in your campaign, and at what cost?

I added to your list above.

My suggestion is this: design a straight up fighter class modified to add the turning ability at class level. That ought to give you an idea of how much the turning ability is worth. Then you could apply that cost to the arcane caster.

But, that's just the way I would do it.

 

[Kabol]

Arcane casters have no precident to turn undead. Actualy they dont even weaild the type of power that makes it possable. Clerics Turn/Rebuke with thier control of Positive and Negative energy. Priests are the only ones that get access to this form of Power. The ability to Turn Undead is a staple of the Cleric class.

Yes, clerics gets HD and Armor and alot of spells. But, they also shoulder the respocability of the groups health. Even if they Has fantastic offensive powers, they woudl only be able to use then in the begining of the fight. As soon as the mobs start swinging the heals have to start flowing. And many times, thats all teh cleric gets to do in big combats. Heal this guy, move over, heal that guy, move back heal first guy... etc

Arcane casters do gets soem fairly good Undead Spells. Control Undead is Insanely good, as well as disrupt (1d6 for 0 lvl spell). What Arcane casters lack in HD and AC they make up wiht RAW offensive power. Many times while im running round healing here and there Our wizzard is standing back pounding mobs into the dirt.

 

[Nail]

Sounds like a House Rules question, to me.

 

[Thanee]

Would you allow an arcane caster to turn undead as an equal level cleric in your campaign, and at what cost?

Hmm...

Comparing various domain abilities, there are some that grant a bonus feat and some that grant a bonus ability to turn/rebuke (elementals, lycanthropes, etc). Now, gaining the ability to turn/rebuke undead is surely worth more than a feat, because it would be the initial ability, not a secondary, additional one, as with the domain abilities.

In Complete Divine there are the Spontaneous Healer/Wounder feats and the Arcane Disciple, which go into a similar direction. Maybe make Spontaneous Healer/Wounder a prerequisite for new Turn/Rebuke Undead feats (granting the usual 3+Cha modifier attempts at an equivalent cleric level equal to the class level of one arcane spellcasting core class (maybe one-half or minus 2 or 3 the class level)). That would be pretty fair, requiring an arcane caster to learn three feats to get there and on the way get the ability to channel positive and negative energy in both ways (cure/inflict wounds and turn/rebuke undead).

Bye
Thanee

 

[welby]

Arcane casters have no precident to turn undead. Actualy they dont even weaild the type of power that makes it possable. Clerics Turn/Rebuke with thier control of Positive and Negative energy. Priests are the only ones that get access to this form of Power. The ability to Turn Undead is a staple of the Cleric class.

See my 'So, besides the "it has and always will be that way in D&D" or "Because it comes from their God" reasons, why is turning limited to divine casters?' comment

But, they also shoulder the respocability of the groups health. Even if they Has fantastic offensive powers, they woudl only be able to use then in the begining of the fight.

They don't have to. Our cleric trys not to do this at all. Being able to heal is a benefit, not a restriction.

apsuman, thank you for adding to my list. I forgot to add bonus spells. I would disagree that a clerics spells are "awful". I would say they are on par with a wizards, with the wizard edging out a cleric with a wider variety of damaging spells.

 

[Thanee]

I would disagree that a clerics spells are "awful". I would say they are on par with a wizards, with the wizard edging out a cleric with a wider variety of damaging spells.

Cleric spells surely are everything but "awful", but "on par" is taking it a bit far as well.

They have their advantages in some areas (mostly healing, magical protection and later save or die spells), but overall divine magic cannot really keep up with arcane magic.

Bye
Thanee

 

[welby]

I dont have the complete divine. Can you tell me a bit about the Arcane Disciple?

 

[Thanee]

Grants arcane casters one domain list (chosen from their deity) worth of spells to add to their class list (they don't learn them automatically, otherwise that would be pretty good for sorcerers ). Quite nice with the healing domain.

Bye
Thanee

 

[mmu1]

I've played in many games where turning undead hardly even came into play - so, no, it's probably not a vitally important class feature.

However, that doesn't change the fact that taking it away from Clerics and giving it to Wizards does create an imbalance - arcane casters are extremely strong as it is.

BTW, Clerics don't come anywhere close Wizards in terms of spell power. The main reason for this is that Cleric spells are, by and large, reactive - they're all about the undoing of various effects and conditions, which means they're not versatile and useless unless someone else does something to make them necessary. Another one is that they're completely outclassed in terms of damage spells.

And the whole "Clerics don't have to heal" line is one of the biggest loads in the history of D&D. Sure - and Fighters don't have to use weapons, and Rogues don't have to sneak attack, and Bards don't have to sing, and Druids don't have to wildshape... In fact, they can all just stay back at the inn and play charades because that whole adventuring party thing is so gauche anyway... It's just a lame excuse for being a selfish player.