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Why do Crossbows Suck?

I'm wondering if crossbows are not handled well because most game systems are too abstracted to handle important details.

A crossbow has a lot more mechanism to it and should have a higher fumble chance, say, because the trigger or release a gummed with mud: There seems to be more that can go wrong.

Although, for the untrained, there should be a high fumble chance for using a bow. That is, comparing a crossbow with a bow, the consequence of untrained vs trained (or for a bow, highly trained) should matter a lot more than what is typically built into the game rules.

This would be similar to early firearms, which should have a chance of blowing up in your face, or jamming, or simply not firing, or for any weapon which had mechanical bits (e.g., the Koa-Toa man-catchers; in Pathfinder, weapons weapons which act as syringes; generally, anything with a poison delivery mechanism).

Thx!

TomB
 

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Problem is for a good bow you need rather specific wood (both the right sort and correctly grown) while any iron (there are crossbows fully made out of metal) will do for a crossbow.

Why do crossbows suck? Because all advantages of crossbows are neglected in D&D (training is hardly an issue, armor penetration and fatigue is not modeled) while the advantages of bows (theoretical rate of fire) are even more important than in reality.

Edit:
But when you assume that all PCs are trained archers, an assumption the rules seem to back, it makes sense that the bow is better than the crossbow because in trained hands it is.
A different way to represent that would be to make the bow weaker than the crossbow, but have more feats for it which would ultimately make it stronger.

They already do that in many editons, you need martial weapon proficiency for bows, but not for crossbows. You can then add feats like rapid shot to fire more quickly.
 

They already do that in many editons, you need martial weapon proficiency for bows, but not for crossbows.

Which is rather pointless as so many classes have martial weapon proficiency and those who don't usually do not need a ranged weapon. Only the rogue is actually restricted by this.
 

Ya can't give a hand cranked crossbow good enough damage because some foolish game designer will let some borked ability to magically and instantly reload in eventually.

I also think the early editions put a ridiculously HIGH value on 'damage die +1' and '2d4' damage values since 4-5 HP was the typical HP of the 1HD combatant.

Plus ranged weapon in an underground skirmish situation are fairly moot since even most of D&D editions have the good sense to make it very hard to use missile weapons in melee.
 

Good points. Regarding the machinery of the crossbow, I have to wonder whether the craftsmanship of the, say, middle ages made it a simple process or not.

Did you take a look at the video posted by Ryujin earlier? The trigger mechanism was not much more than a cog and a wedge. Seems pretty easy to pull off. And the bow portion looked to be a piece of steel.

I think I've seen that Lindy Beige video a while ago - it certainly seemed familiar. It looks like the standard "nut and trigger" crossbow lock which is a simple, straightforward design. I'd think it would still need a metalworker of some skill to manufacture with a forge and handtools.

That said, the Chinese were mass-manufacturing crossbow trigger mechanisms that were much more sophisticated thousands of years earlier (literally).

This has me thinking that a crossbow can be made by any blacksmith, while a longbow (of good quality) might require a wood-specialist (bowyer, maybe?).

I'd think that manufacturing a good example of either weapon would likely be the work of a specialist. Although I would think that making a bow would be the easier of the two.

Given the time period in question, would we be better off discussing in terms of labor-hours, instead of prices?

That'd be interesting if we could find some reliable information on how much labour each required, but I don't know of any sources.
 

Problem is for a good bow you need rather specific wood (both the right sort and correctly grown) while any iron (there are crossbows fully made out of metal) will do for a crossbow.

True. In the middle ages England imported a lot of the yew wood they used to make longbows.

While any iron (there are crossbows fully made out of metal) will do for a crossbow.

You need pretty good quality steel for a metal crossbow - at least for the "working parts" like the prod and parts of the trigger. In our modern era good-quality steel is abundant and cheap, but it was expensive and sometimes hard to acquire in Medieval times.

Although a fantasy world may also have cheap steel. If we're talking D&D, a longsword costs three times more than a longspear and costs less than a pony or guard dog - that's far cheaper than they'd have been in real life.

But when you assume that all PCs are trained archers, an assumption the rules seem to back, it makes sense that the bow is better than the crossbow because in trained hands it is.

A different way to represent that would be to make the bow weaker than the crossbow, but have more feats for it which would ultimately make it stronger.

That's what I'd do if I was rewriting D&D. Being a military archer required long practice to build up the strength and skill to use a powerful bow, so it makes sense to require some character investment to become a good archer. A bow that grants full strength bonus on damage (what was called a "mighty" composite bow in 3E) ought to require an exotic weapon feat to use accurately, judging by how much training they needed in real life.
 

Being a military archer required long practice to build up the strength and skill to use a powerful bow

Thats also a good point. Using a good bow requires a lot more strength than a crossbow with the same draw strength as you could use mechanical aids or even just your feet to pull the crossbow into position while you have to do it with your arms for the bow. I already mentioned the fatigue as constantly pulling a bow to full strength tires you really quickly.

But if those forums and my previous players are any indications, PCs tend to be optimized so strength is not a problem.
 

Part of the reason D&D archery differs from real world archery is proficiency.

In the real world, it takes years of training to be good military longbowmen. A crossbow, on the other other hand, could be taught in a few weeks. It's much easier to aim.

But in D&D, and RPGs in general, you're either proficient or you aren't. Your class gives it to you for free, or you spend a feat on it. Learn either one by adding the feat, takes a few seconds with the pencil and your character sheet and you're done.

Another difference is the timing. Battles in real life took place over a day, and archers of any flavor tended to be dug in or otherwise protected. Rate of fire was limited by how quickly your scavengers could collect spent enemy arrows and get them back to your archers. Nobody carried the hundreds of arrows, per man, needed for an all day assault. Instead you'd shoot your supply at the enemy as they shot theirs at you. If your troops were advancing you or designated scavengers would collect the arrows from both sides and get them back to you. If your side was forced to retreat you ran short, since you can only collect the ones that land within your own ranks.

Specifically though, your rate of fire wasn't limited so much by reload time as it was by arrow supply. The only time you needed to rapid fire was when an enemy force charged the archers' position and you lacked the infantry or fortifications to stop them.

In D&D, all battles that PCs are involved in are rapid-fire skirmishes, begun and finished in under two minutes. The ability to shoot faster is far more important in that setting, and arrow supply is often ignored.

In that setting, losing a full round to reload is a fatal weakness.

Some of the heavy crossbows of the middle ages had a small crank-action winch that drew the bowstring. A man of just about any strength could work one, but it was time consuming.

Medium crossbows often had a stirrup of sorts at the firing end, so the archer could put their foot in it and haul back the string with both hands. Faster than the crank, but still slower than the longbow.

The light crossbow was almost a pistol, in size and operation. Okay, maybe a sawed-off shotgun size. But it could be cocked with one hand and fired with the other. Good for rapid fire skirmishes, though it lacked the straight knock-down power of the heavier models.

The Chinese had a type of crossbow with a box to hold the bolts and a lever action to draw and nock them. Rapid fire, but less punch than even the light European crossbow.

On the whole the crossbow was harder to make: Moving parts, and bow limbs that had to be heavier, yet could still flex without cracking.

In the real world (and in the game, though it's seldom played) you could shoot a shortbow while mounted. Long bows, on the other hand, posed a problem for the horseman: You couldn't shift aim from one side of your mount to the other. The long limbs of the bow couldn't swing past the horse's neck easily.

The final difference between the real world and the game involves how armor works.

In the real world, a crossbow could punch plate armor at short and medium range. Longbows were less effective at this unless they had special armor piercing arrowheads. ("Odds! Bodkins! " pretty much meant, "Oh spit, they brought cop-killers")

But since D&D doesn't use armor to reduce damage, heavy or light weapon makes no difference. You hit the AC and you hit, period, whether it's with a javelin or a juice glass.

As a side note: Some tests were done with "poisoned arrows". Arrow heads were made with grooves to retain a liquid poison via capillary action, then fired.

The speed of passage through the air pretty much scattered the venom in flight. Unless you were firing point blank, it meant nothing.

Arrow heads could be specially prepared well in advance, but they had to have grooves and hollows for poison, and then they'd have to be covered in wax, to protect it. Nobody ever did the "Dip and shoot" thing we see people do in games.

The tribes in Africa and South America (and Southeast Asia for all I know) that traditionally poisoned their arrows were more stone age, and didn't use arrow heads at all. Their arrows had sharpened wooden tips that they'd bake dry near a fire, to harden them. Once dried they'd soak the wood in the poison, and it would be absorbed.

In game terms we'd call them sort of the opposite of "master worked". They'd have penalties to range and accuracy, and do less damage.

Now, why do longbows rule in game? Probably because of Robin Hood, movies like Spartacus and similar cinematic scenes that inspired the authors. It makes a better visual image for fantasy art. :)
 

Several reasons.

1: A crossbow was a peasant's weapon. Not because it was cheap, but because you could teach someone to use a crossbow in an afternoon and have them useful on a battlefield if only to upset opposing light troops. The joke that to train an archer you start by training his grandfather is only half a joke.

2: You might be able to load and fire a crossbow in 6-10 seconds using a goat's foot if you were hurrying - but longbows were much faster. (The 3e move action to reload for a light crossbow isn't far off).

3: Because of 1 the average skill of a combat longbowman was massively greater. Because of 2 the use you could get from a high skill longbow was much greater. So if you were going to specialise you went for the bow.

4: The crossbow was basically a European weapon of the late middle ages (yes, I know the Chinese even had repeating crossbows). The bow was used by masses of feared armies from English and Welsh Freelances to the Mongols, the Persians ("Ride a horse, shoot a bow, and speak the truth"), the Parthians (Carrhae, anyone?) and many, many other armies.

But basically it boils down to the crossbow being a weapon for relatively rich peasants and the way it changed the battlefield being to allow them to narrow the gap with professionals.

[video=youtube;iIkxyjVu9gc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIkxyjVu9gc[/video]
 

I blame 4E and Pathfinder, and 3E to a lesser extent.

It was traditionally the case that, if you wanted to attack, you made an attack roll (Strength for melee, Dex for ranged) against AC. Everyone used the same rules. Although spellcasters could bypass this on a very limited basis with their handful of spells per day, their only at-will attacks were with weapons, at which they did not excel. Crossbows (3E) and darts (2E) filled the niche of providing the at-will ranged attack for characters who aren't very good at fighting.

Since late 3.5 at least, and possibly earlier, spellcasters stopped needing to use weapons. At-will magic meant that they never needed to use the weapons of which they were not a master. And, with the removal of non-master combatants from the weapon arena, crossbows were left with no purpose. If you remove the at-will magic from 5E, then I think it fairly likely that the crossbow will again find a home with the mage.
 

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