Why do Dragonlance campaings never work?

[talinthas]

well, my players had never heard of DL till i started the game, so canon has never ever been a problem for me. in fact the only issues my game has is with those pesky things called rules =)

 

[M.L. Martin]

AND Raistlin! (How could you guys forget Raistlin?!)

I only wish I _could_. ;-)

How much of Dragons of Summer Flame was an excuse to push that SAGA stuff everyone turned their noses up at?

None. Zero. Zip. Absolutely _nothing_ at all.

_Dragons of Summer Flame_ came from the pens of Weis & Hickman; the only major change TSR made to it, to the best of my knowledge, was to compress it down from a trilogy to a single book. The Fifth Age was proposed by DL fans on staff and accepted by Management _after_ the book was written and pushed to bookstores; TSR demanded that it be non-AD&D, for a variety of reasons (low sales on the AD&D versions of DL and legal concerns regarding the movie license have been cited), and the designers came up with the SAGA System.

Matthew L. Martin, DL ex-fan, Last Defender of the Fifth Age

 

[M.L. Martin]

I think that the novels _have_ caused problems for the setting--not so much because of the metaplot, but because a lot of people have developed a tendency to gloss over or outright erase anything that isn't called out explicitly in the 'Core' novels. And recently, the core novels have started destroying setting elements as much as they add them.

However, my bitterness towards DL comes from a sense that I've misunderstood the setting for years. I thought of DL as a setting of Epic Fantasy, full of wonder, romance, and the conflict of Good and Evil; a sharply defined, bright-colored setting. Instead, DL seems to have become more a setting of internal conflict, an focus on 'shades of gray' to the point that heroism and goodness are denigrated or minimized to the point of near non-existence, and emphasizing maintaining the Balance, attaining self-knowledge rather than virtue, and following your inner kender.

Matthew L. Martin

 

[Desdichado]

I stand by my original point that DL has a much stronger role-playing emphasis to it than many other published campaign settings, and is also meant to be much more epic in scope. Alot depends on the ability of your DM. If he's good, then anything is possible. Anyone who thinks that players can't surpass the achievements of the Heroes in the WotL obviously underestimate the potential for greatness and probably shouldn't be playing DL at all.

That's just silly. This is what's called a "just-so" story; it's true because you just say so regardless of what any evidence is to the contrary. I've asked what about the setting gives it more of a role-playing emphasis and haven't had anyone really answer that there's anything other than a comment in one part of the book that story awards of XP should be encouraged. You're making claims for the setting that have nothing to do with the setting itself. I'm also curious in regards to which settings you're comparing them too; what makes a setting's emphasis not be on roleplaying?

As for the roleplaying over hack n' slashing, DL has always been more roleplay and less dungeons. Yes, ruins and a few dungeons have appeared over the years in modules and stories, but thats not where the game lies. I think that the nature of roleplaying over combat in DL has always been there in spirit it just hasn't been put into so many words. Running a dungeonn crawl in Dl would not fit the setting as much as politics, wars and consequence. Yes, those things can appear in any setting but DL of all TSR's old settings carries those themes across as part of what the setting is.

The same could legitimately be said about any setting. Again, you're taking something that's group and DM specific and trying to apply it to the setting as a whole. This is absolutely not true for the setting overall, as your own post implies; there's no lack of dungeons and hack-n-slash potential in official product than for any other setting.

The thing that makes Krynn more roleplay than powergaming (outside of the artificial 18th level cap back in 1st ed) is that adventurers, heroes, and other high level folk are very rare in the setting. Magical items are almost Dark Sun-like in rarity. Arcane casters are rare, and pending when you play, divine casters nearly unheard of. The game is much more low magic than most standard campaign settings. If you try to play a standard dungeon crawl or powergaming session on DL, you'll quickly find yourself bored, or easily dominating everything out there. Part of the point of dragonlance is that your heroes are _the_ heroes- that is, you are the only force of change in the world. That, coupled with the concept of epic fantasy, helps make DL more roleplaying based, and less powergaming friendly.

This makes no sense. There's no correllation between roleplaying and the presence of high level NPCs that I can see. And why would playing standard dungeon crawls be boring when the first official gaming products for Dragonlance were dungeoncrawls, and the novels right off the bat featured several dungeoncrawls? How does the "concept of epic fantasy" make the game less powergaming friendly, when logically it could be argued that the opposite would be just as likely, if not moreso, to happen? Everybody who's claiming that DL is more roleplaying intensive is making the same mistake; namely that they like roleplaying intensive, they like Dragonlance, ergo Dragonlance must be more roleplaying intensive. This is complete hogwash as near as I can tell; the only common thread there is you and your tastes. There's nothing about the setting itself that encourages roleplaying over any other setting.

 

[Dogbrain]

I stand by my original point that DL has a much stronger role-playing emphasis to it than many other published campaign settings, and is also meant to be much more epic in scope. Alot depends on the ability of your DM. If he's good, then anything is possible. Anyone who thinks that players can't surpass the achievements of the Heroes in the WotL obviously underestimate the potential for greatness and probably shouldn't be playing DL at all.

Ah, I see, and upon what authority do you claim the right to be ultimate arbiter of all that is right and wrong in gaming? Must be hard to get into buildings when forever mounted upon that percheron.

 

[Desdichado]

I've always been fond of Clydesdale's myself, but that may have something to do with seeing the Budweiser wagon when I was a kid.

 

[Voadam]

DL has a lot of neat RP material, the minotaurs, the orders of knights, the orders of magic, the god cosmology. It also has a lot of sillyness such as the three littles, kender, tinker gnomes, and gully dwarves and from the stories the green gemstone man.

I ran my game in Taladas for a while and had a lot of fun. I've also played one shots in ansalon as a knight or a wizard or a minotaur and they were fun as well. I just try to avoid the silliness aspects.

 

[Davelozzi]

Joshua,
I'm not sure how you are expecting the setting itself to encourage roleplaying. It does a bit, partially through the XP guidelines I mentioned, small as they may be, but mainly through the rich history and organizations behind the various classes that give players a place in the world.

Certainly the Knights of Solamnia, Holy Orders of the Stars, and Wizards of High Sorcery put the players in certain roles meant to emphasize their place in the grand scheme of things. In the years since Dragonlance came out, many other settings have begun to have more of a focus on such organizations, especially in 3e, with all the prestige classes. However, Dragonlance led the charge here. The organizations cited above, and their related politics are much more a focus of the setting than say the Purple Dragons of Cormyr in FR or the Knights of the Hart (and others) in Greyhawk. The Harpers may be similar, but again, their role has been emphasized a lot more over the years than it was in the old grey box.

The same is true of the world's history. The original Dragonlance novels, adventures, and the Dragonlance Adventures hardcover made the history of the world an essential element of the land's present day status. Whereas the brief history outline in Greyhawk and similar legends in FR (at that time sparse, even if now they could fill a set of encyclopedias), served mainly as an excuse to have ruins to explore.

All that aside, in my opinion, the main factor is the not so much the setting itself as the way it's been marketed. The association of DL with roleplaying heavy games is not because some gamers happen to enjoy both a roleplaying focused game and also happen to enjoy Dragonlance. It's the other way around. Dragonlance has always been marketed as the roleplaying heavy world (or the world focused on romantic heroism, drama, and most of all story). For that reason, gamers with such tastes are drawn to the setting, essentially creating a self-fulfilling prophecy among the fan base.

At least that's my take.

And in case it matters, a quick note about where I'm coming from as far as Dragonlance is concerned. I don't consider myself a hardcore DL fan, and in fact I've never used DL as a game setting. However, I did enjoy the Chronicles and Legends trilogy when I was younger, and am familiar with a good deal of the RPG products that have come out over the years. My only flirtations with the setting in recent years was that I purchased and read the DLCS a few months ago, mostly just for nostalgia value, although I think it was done well.

 

[Wolffenjugend]

Ah, I see, and upon what authority do you claim the right to be ultimate arbiter of all that is right and wrong in gaming?

Did you even read my post? Whose claiming to be the "ultimate arbiter..." blah, blah, blah. Your words, not mine.

My "authority" comes from experience. Lots of it. If you disagree, good for you. You earn a cookie. But it's been my experience that groups that play in DL tend to be much more role-playing oriented than groups that play in, for example, the Forgotten Realms. If your experience is different, then that's great. You earn another cookie. But my original statement still holds.

It's been my experience that many of the people who play DL have read the novels and have a much better feel for the world and its epic scope; they have a feel for the idea that anything is possible for a bunch of heroes. They tend to have a broader world view and are not so concerned with what prestige class they're going to take next or how best to min/max their character, regardless of how silly (but legal) it would be. I can't effectively communicate in a simple post why DL is what it is. If you still can't get your head around it, I'd suggest joining a DL group and seeing for yourself.

But anyhoo, whatever, opinions vary. And that's mine. If you don't like it, tough. If I don't like yours, tough. That's the way the cookie crumbles... (I couldn't resist )

 

[Desdichado]

I'm not sure how you are expecting the setting itself to encourage roleplaying. It does a bit, partially through the XP guidelines I mentioned, small as they may be, but mainly through the rich history and organizations behind the various classes that give players a place in the world.

Certainly the Knights of Solamnia, Holy Orders of the Stars, and Wizards of High Sorcery put the players in certain roles meant to emphasize their place in the grand scheme of things. In the years since Dragonlance came out, many other settings have begun to have more of a focus on such organizations, especially in 3e, with all the prestige classes. However, Dragonlance led the charge here. The organizations cited above, and their related politics are much more a focus of the setting than say the Purple Dragons of Cormyr in FR or the Knights of the Hart (and others) in Greyhawk. The Harpers may be similar, but again, their role has been emphasized a lot more over the years than it was in the old grey box.

The same is true of the world's history. The original Dragonlance novels, adventures, and the Dragonlance Adventures hardcover made the history of the world an essential element of the land's present day status. Whereas the brief history outline in Greyhawk and similar legends in FR (at that time sparse, even if now they could fill a set of encyclopedias), served mainly as an excuse to have ruins to explore.

All that aside, in my opinion, the main factor is the not so much the setting itself as the way it's been marketed. The association of DL with roleplaying heavy games is not because some gamers happen to enjoy both a roleplaying focused game and also happen to enjoy Dragonlance. It's the other way around. Dragonlance has always been marketed as the roleplaying heavy world (or the world focused on romantic heroism, drama, and most of all story). For that reason, gamers with such tastes are drawn to the setting, essentially creating a self-fulfilling prophecy among the fan base.

At least that's my take.

And in case it matters, a quick note about where I'm coming from as far as Dragonlance is concerned. I don't consider myself a hardcore DL fan, and in fact I've never used DL as a game setting. However, I did enjoy the Chronicles and Legends trilogy when I was younger, and am familiar with a good deal of the RPG products that have come out over the years. My only flirtations with the setting in recent years was that I purchased and read the DLCS a few months ago, mostly just for nostalgia value, although I think it was done well.

I'd agree that Greyhawk in particular is little more than an excuse to have ruins to explore, in most cases. Forgotten Realms is iffy, as it's been through a lot of "focuses" over the years, from the gray box to the current hardcover, but I certainly don't think FR today is any less roleplaying conducive than Dragonlance.

The many settings that came out after DL during the 2e days were almost all as roleplaying intensive, if not moreso, than DL by virtue of the focus of the settings and the tone and themes explored in their main books: Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Planescape, etc.

I guess my point is, there's little about the setting that makes it superior to other settings in terms of "facilitation of roleplaying" and it could be argued that some other settings, at least, are superior to it in that regard. Certainly nobody can claim that Planescape is about hack-n-slash or dungeoncrawling, to use one example.

For the record, my experience with DL is similar to yours (although I haven't actually picked up the new book yet) and I do also have very fond memories, especially of the original three Chronicles books, which I consider to be the only classics of game fiction ever published.