D&D 5E Why Do Higher Levels Get Less Play?

[Maxperson]

Exactly .

The core issue is that the designers only designed for long, attrition based, dungeon play for high levels. However they didn't care enough about high levels to seriously balance it.

It was just "Well you only get 1 slot for each level above 5th level. That'll do it. 8 room dungeon and you only have 4-6 good spells per caster.".

No one went back and thought "The math ain't mathing? That means 2 full casters have 8-12 top spells for 8 encounters. 3 casters is 12-18. The nonCaster will never shine.." Nor "What about Playstyles with less that 6 encounters?". Whether deliberately or accidentally.

You don't need 7-9th level spells to take on high level monsters. They help, but are not necessary. There are plenty of good spells below 7th to use.

 

[Maxperson]

this,
if you hope to get to level 20, you better start your campaign at level 11+.

Well crap. Then I guess the multiple 5e campaigns I ran and played in that started at 3rd level and made it to high levels(including 20) didn't actually happen. Silly me for thinking that reality was real.

 

[Upper_Krust]

High level means different things in different editions.

Early on you didn't really have 1-20. It was more like 1-10 or 1-12.

Kinda had to extrapolate higher some classes couldn't do that until UA.

1-20 isn't even a thing until 1989 in a core book.

B/X was about the best for high level.

One person's high level play is bloat for another. 2 editions stretched it to 30+.

I got to 117th-level in AD&D; leveling back then was unlimited - though offered little boost after about 10th for most classes.

 

[GrimCo]

The fact that I can run a high level campaign with the tools provided only in the core 5e books proves that to be false. There are plenty high level giants, dragons and outsides for me to use. My preference for there to be more variety is only that. A preference, not a lack of tools.

Or one can just throw massive amounts of low level "mundane" opponents if they don't wan't to venture into extra planar creatures.

The problem is that 5e gives zero training on how to use those tools and new DMs are almost sure to screw it up trying to run high level games the same way they run low level games, and that doesn't work.

Agree. Support on how to run it via solid advice is non existent in DMG. While you can run lv 7 and lv 17 adventure in similar way, it doesn't work that great. Or they could be transparent and say: "High levels are meant as a few sessions end game content and not for prolonged campaignin . Players are powered up so they can confront bbeg in one final epic showdown at the end of campaign. "

Or they could actually devote solid chapter on running high level games, maybe even two ( one for 11-15 and one for 16-20).

 

[OB1]

In general, I think high level play requires a level of investment from the players (including the DM), that is more than what the casual D&D player enjoys. For one, I think successful high level play almost always stems from progressing through many levels before it (ie starting no higher than level 5) wich of course requires time. That alone can prevent high level play. Since 2014, I've had 2 campaigns that went from 1 or 3 to 20, and four others that started below 5 but petered out around 12-14 due to the group falling apart for various real life reasons. Now, I do think you can have a successful high level campaign that starts high (see BLeeMs EXU Downfall for a good example), but that requires players with a strong mastery of D&D and a lot of trust in setting up the scenario. But even in that case, the 'campaign' only lasted 20 hours or so.

 

[Minigiant]

You don't need 7-9th level spells to take on high level monsters. They help, but are not necessary. There are plenty of good spells below 7th to use.

No you don't need it.

But as 4e shows, if you stray too far from the establishment, you will face a backlash and hurt your financials in the long run.

 

[NN]

I got to 117th-level in AD&D; leveling back then was unlimited - though offered little boost after about 10th for most classes.

lol

 

[Demetrios1453]

The fact that I can run a high level campaign with the tools provided only in the core 5e books proves that to be false. There are plenty high level giants, dragons and outsides for me to use.

There are no high level giants to use. As I mentioned in a previous post, the giants in the MM top out at CR 13. You'll find lots of undead and aberrations at 15+ CRs, though.

 

[chuckdee]

You don't need 7-9th level spells to take on high level monsters. They help, but are not necessary. There are plenty of good spells below 7th to use.

Depends on what you mean by 'monster'. I remember we took on Sauron with the Ring (long story) in ME, and he was throwing around high level spells and demolishing us.

 

[NN]

S By the mid 80s, universal systems began to appear, including Hero and GURPS, both of which allowed for essentially limitless power level variety under a single ruleset.

Don’t GURPS and HERO require a GM-player gentleperson’s agreement not to push the character rules too hard, in contrast to D&D’s Optimization Culture?