D&D 5E Why Do Higher Levels Get Less Play?

[MGibster]

Don’t GURPS and HERO require a GM-player gentleperson’s agreement not to push the character rules too hard, in contrast to D&D’s Optimization Culture?

Yeah. At least in 3rd edition, the GURPS folks weren't shy about the need for the GM to monitor how points were spent generating characters. i.e. Just because you can use the rules to create a sentient avocado that carries itself with mage hand doesn't mean you have to allow it. Also, if you're playing a group of WW II commandos, you probably want to make sure one player doesn't make a nuclear scientist while everyone else is a soldier.

 

[Reynard]

Don’t GURPS and HERO require a GM-player gentleperson’s agreement not to push the character rules too hard, in contrast to D&D’s Optimization Culture?

Yeah. At least in 3rd edition, the GURPS folks weren't shy about the need for the GM to monitor how points were spent generating characters. i.e. Just because you can use the rules to create a sentient avocado that carries itself with mage hand doesn't mean you have to allow it. Also, if you're playing a group of WW II commandos, you probably want to make sure one player doesn't make a nuclear scientist while everyone else is a soldier.

In my experience, the GM had to keep an eye on things more to keep a player from creating a useless character than an OP one. The latter can happen but usually requires a skilled player. The former happens a lot more easily by accident.

But that is neither here nor there. The question was "do these games exist." And yes, they do and essentially always have.

Also, it is weird that you thing Char-Op is a universally accepted part of D&D. MANY people are against powergaming/ers.

 

[NN]

Are the nonpowergamers clamouring for more Epic monsters to smack?

 

[bloodtide]

The problem is that 5e gives zero training on how to use those tools and new DMs are almost sure to screw it up trying to run high level games the same way they run low level games, and that doesn't work.

I run a lot of high level games too, and have no problems with good players.

Though I run a hard fun ultra high magic game world even at 1st level too.

In general, I think high level play requires a level of investment from the players (including the DM), that is more than what the casual D&D player enjoys.

I find this to be so true.

A recent 5E D&D game had the group of 2nd level characters track the goblin bandits to a small island out in a lake. As the characters were all typical 5E 'all combat' types, the game came to a halt as the players could not figure out anyway to get out to the island. Nothing on their character sheets had anything like 'travel to an island'. And they did not really want to "think" too much: they just wanted a fun casual all combat game.

This is an example of a very simple problem, with several very easy and simple solutions. But ones beyond what players were willing or able to do.

And this is just a low level problem. As the levels go up the problems get much harder.

 

[Zardnaar]

Are the nonpowergamers clamouring for more Epic monsters to smack?

Nope. Majority of players are casuals and don't do higher levels. I suspect it's been thus way for years. WotC only realized about a decade ago.

 

[Reynard]

Are the nonpowergamers clamouring for more Epic monsters to smack?

The question is a non sequitor. What does power gaming have to do with high/epic level fantasy?

 

[Minigiant]

Are the nonpowergamers clamouring for more Epic monsters to smack?

The DMs.

TSR and WOTC make few epic monsters and 50% are hot garbage power wise due to miscalculation of the baseline, overvaluing features, or underestimation of player intelligence.

Why does nobody want to play high level and fight the Epic Sacks of HP?

 

[Zardnaar]

The DMs.

TSR and WOTC make few epic monsters and 50% are hot garbage power wise due to miscalculation of the baseline, overvaluing features, or underestimation of player intelligence.

Why does nobody want to play high level and fight the Epic Sacks of HP?

That's a modern D&D problem 3.5 towards. Hp bloat.

3.0 conceptually may have got it right.

 

[Demetrios1453]

Thinking on this a bit more, one thing they could do is periodically put in 17+ adventures in the anthologies. That way, the tier will get some coverage and material, without worrying about making it the cap of a full adventure path.

 

[Minigiant]

That's a modern D&D problem 3.5 towards. Hp bloat.

3.0 conceptually may have got it right.

All editions had this problem.

The issue with high level D&D is that only spells scales well after ~13th level or so.

So 80% of monsters at high levels are

1. Spellcasters using the only thing that scales....spells
2. Monsters who are Resistant or Immune to a ton of stuff (often spells).
3. HP sponges
4. Some combination of the above

This forces DMs to create their own stuff or go elsewhere to challenge the players. Or be very stingy with equipment.