Why do levels one and two suck so bad?

[Nifft]

I would generalize this and say "hit points".

1st level in Spycraft ain't shabby either.

True. There's a bit more than that, though. There's also general competence.

1st level SWSaga dude can have a skill bonus up to 10 + ability. That's respectable. 1st level D&D dude? 10 is unlikely.

Cheers, -- N

 

[JDJblatherings]

Right. Hide or run away.

The rest aren't options. They're questions the PCs can answer, not actions the PCs can take.

IMHO this is an excellent opportunity for an event to happen out of game. In the precious few hours I have to play, I don't want unexciting things to happen, and I don't want to force my PCs into unexciting situations.

If they realistically have very few options, pick the smartest (or most fun) option, assume they took it, and let them read about the results. Then, start the action where the PC's choices start to matter, and let them have some fun with the exciting parts of the game.

Maybe if my group had a lot more time, we'd get to enjoy playing 1st & 2nd level more. But we don't have much time at all. We need to cut to the chase.

Cheers, -- N

Having a band of 1st level PC's encounter and avoid an overwhelming force is NOT exciting ???? So when the hobbits avoid the ring wraiths leaving the shire, there was no excitement there?

the PCs choices absolutely positively matter in the giant and the hobgoblins rushign along scenario. They choose combat they wil likely die, they chose immediate flight they lose many possible opportunities to be Heros by their own merits instead of what was spoon fed to them.
To me 10level + means so much more when the player has had to run the PC since 1st level. +16 to hit means a heck of a lot more to a fighter when he used to be simply+2. The giant he hid from 2 years ago is now a foe he has some chance against.


1st and 2nd level shoudl be when players PCS get to learn abotu the game world before they are the movers and shakers. They should be building the reputations so kings wll seek them out later.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

Okay... Either I'm missing something or we have wildly divergent definitions of encounter...

An encounter even a visual one with an overwhelming force opens opportunities.

I couldn't agree more.

Maybe there is a village with some survivors in desperate need of help. Maybe there are a few folks on the giant and hobgoblins back trail in need of rescue vs the few staggling hobgoblin marauders. Maybe there is a nad of 12th level characters that could benefit from knowing where the fleeing marauders actually are (or are going).

And how does this equate to the Fight/Hide issue with the main force of Giants and Friends?

Every encoutner doesn't lead to a resolution right then during that encounter or durign the next encounter.

I will agree if that line changes to "Every story line doesn't lead to a resolution right then during that encounter or durign the next encounter."

You come across a massive force of baddies. That is an encounter. You see a dragon that flies hundreds of feet above you. That is an encounter. They may not all be worth xp (such as the dragon that flies past you and does nothing) but I would call that an encounter. The group has encountered a dragon; or a giant; or a named NPC. They might not remember the PC if asked about them later, but the PC now has a story to tell.

The meeting may create a story line that isn't resolved for scenes/sessions/months/years but the encounter itself resolves when the party is no longer seeing the force of baddies/talking to the NPC/fighting the bad guys.

But players get to have PCS that live in a world with dragons and giants before they can tackle them they shouldn't all be off stage until the PCs can beat them.

Again, in complete agreement.

But the PCs have come across a massive force of bad guys heading in some direction. I see three choices that they can do: Fight, Hide (anything they do where they don't want the baddies to know they are there) or Attempt to Talk to them. Assuming the PCs don't get wiped out by the overwhelming force; this encounter may lead to many, many plot hooks and future adventures. That doesn't change the fact the the PCs need to survive this particular encounter.

 

[JDJblatherings]

The meeting may create a story line that isn't resolved for scenes/sessions/months/years but the encounter itself resolves when the party is no longer seeing the force of baddies/talking to the NPC/fighting the bad guys.



Again, in complete agreement.

But the PCs have come across a massive force of bad guys heading in some direction. I see three choices that they can do: Fight, Hide (anything they do where they don't want the baddies to know they are there) or Attempt to Talk to them. Assuming the PCs don't get wiped out by the overwhelming force; this encounter may lead to many, many plot hooks and future adventures. That doesn't change the fact the the PCs need to survive this particular encounter.

They do have to survive and there are immediate options including, fight, hide, parlay, follow, run away. but those (well most of them) can be followed up by a much wider range of options. head to head combat isn't the only option and a good way to learn that is in encounters that are clearly not survivable via combat. 1st and 2nd level are great points in a PC career to learn that. If a PC can't surive that encoutner at 1st level I don't think they have any right to ever play it at 8th, 15th or 20th level.

I tend to start games at 1st level and we play for years afterwards. My 1st 3e campaign lasted 5 or so years. with PCs from 1st level up into the high teens. Only 1 character survived from the 1st session until the wrap up of the campaign. I think high level play is in part a reward for good low level play and folks who can play well at low levels will play well at high level.

 

[DM-Rocco]

A 2nd level wizard isn't even close to twice as powerful as a 1st level wizard. He gets one extra spell per day, a few extra hit points (but can still easily be dropped in one hit), and a +1 to his Will save. That's it.

Well, kind of yes and kind of no.

Sure you can still be dropped by one blow, but so can the fighter. Any creature could get in a lucky blow at any time to finish off a character regardless of hit points.

As to double power at first level, the 2nd level wizards gets double the hit points of a first level wizard. Okay, you could argue your first level wizard starts with 4 and you have to roll for the second level hit points, but it will be close.

The 2nd level wizard doubles hit WIll save.

The 2nd level wizard doubles his first level spells (minus bonus spells).

The 2nd level wizard double his BAB.

You more than double your 1st level gear, equipment and money.

On top of this, all characters can start to get mad synergy bonuses, if they build their character right.

Does this equal double power? No, not really, but you are not going to start out as a god and work your way up. Well, you might if you find a sympathitic DM. Good luck to ya.

Whether you gloss over the early levels by means of the DM dishing out easy xp in a fast manner, or you pain stakingly draw out each session for 20 adventures, the low levels are needed to give your character depth.

You can skip them, which I have done at times, but in the end, it is better for the game and helps break the meta gamers thirst for buying things as a 5th level character they might not find until 9th or 10th level.

Remember, the starting gold per level is a suggestion and just because you start with 50,000 gp doesn't mean you should be allowed to buy a 40,000gp + sword.

At any rate, the low levels have a place in the game.

 

[Nifft]

You come across a massive force of baddies. That is an encounter. You see a dragon that flies hundreds of feet above you. That is an encounter.

Different definitions, then. IMHO, an encounter is a challenge that has an Encounter Level, which determines how much XP the PCs will get if they overcome the challenge. Encounters cost resources, and may yield rewards (treasure & XP).

If a PC can't surive that encoutner at 1st level I don't think they have any right to ever play it

In this thread: my players don't deserve fun.

, -- N

 

[JDJblatherings]

Different definitions, then. IMHO, an encounter is a challenge that has an Encounter Level, which determines how much XP the PCs will get if they overcome the challenge. Encounters cost resources, and may yield rewards (treasure & XP).

survival is a reward. The passings and buisness of the powerful also poitn out opportunities to the PCs they wouldn't get if they didn't note the passings and buisness of the more powerful.
as to that dragon flying over head-

"hey Furde what color is Frostshrike ?"
"White of course Dannic"
"Isn't Frostshrike supposed tolive on white Owl Peak?"
"Yeah, that's what the sage told us, man we wasted a lot of coin for that bit of lore...oh hey..."
"yup, he is flying away from his layer at a good pace isn't he?"
"Let me get out the map, maybe we have a chance for some easy loot"

In this thread: my players don't deserve fun.

, -- N

Not if they have dead PCs because they don't know when to fight.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

I think that starting at 1st level is the best way to go, because the characters go from being formidable but yet very mortal to becoming highly capable and rising in notoriety. There is something cool about having the 1st level paladin block a swarm of rats running up the stairs with his large shield while his buddies light their last remaining oil flasks and toss them over their tank in the hopes to wipe the little buggers out before they infect anyone with their diseased teeth. That's ingenuity and desperation that makes the game fun that you don't get quite the feel for once you pass 2nd level.

 

[VirgilCaine]

...while his buddies light their last remaining oil flasks... That's ingenuity...that makes the game fun...

Ingenuity here meaning a standard adventuring tactic lots of people use?

 

[Nifft]

Ingenuity here meaning a standard adventuring tactic lots of people use?

Well, I guess his point is, if you haven't done it once, you should.

Many of us are experienced -- we've seen 1st & 2nd level too many times already. But we should remember that not everyone is as experienced, and when those levels are fresh, they can be fun.

Cheers, -- N