Why do levels one and two suck so bad?

[DM-Rocco]

to die horribly while accomplishing nothing. Oh, or we could run away!



Wait, a fire giant plus 10-100 hobgoblins (plus hobgoblin leadership) is a speedbump for 8th level PCs?

Really? -- N

WTF?

You beat me to this with your response. How is that a minor speed bump for an 8th level party?

Plus, you might, as a 1st level party, kill one or two stragglers from the hobgoblin party but you can do nothing but run (not even in terror because you will make too much noise).

Unless you are a human with 18 CHR, skill focus diplomacy, 4 ranks in diplomacy, negotiator feat for a total of +13 in diplomacy, somehow manage to approach through rock throwing distance and get within yelling distance, roll a 20 on a diplomacy check (twenty minutes) on both groups of 50 hobgoblins. Of course they will have to roll a 1 on an opposed check. Assuming the hobgoblins are indifferent towards the PC, this would move them to helpful. Then have then form up into two mobs using the PHBII, drop all gear, other than weapons, and attack the firegiant. Sit back and enjoy. Of course, you have to hope the fire giant is amused at the attepmt and doesn't squash you while you try this and you have a DM who would allow such a dump thing, otherwise, resort to running.

 

[Edgewood]

I must say, I really don't. I would much rather just say "the standard campaign starts PCs at 3rd level" than completely wiping out the 1 and 2 HD steps for everyone.

Then why don't we just get rid of levels altogether then? Or make the standard that 3rd level is and make that 1st level. Heck, let's get rid of levels all together so that we can get away from this discussion of crunching numbers altogether.

 

[JDJblatherings]

to die horribly while accomplishing nothing. Oh, or we could run away!

all of the options aren't die or run away.

what are the hobgoblins carrying?
where did they get it?
why are they nervous?
where are they going?
have they travelled far?
do they have to travel far?
Where the heck did the firgiant come from?
If he (the fire giant) isn't the boss, who is?
Who should jnow about this?
Can we (the PC's) profit from this?
Is there weak oposition with stuff to loot left behind? (for the unethical PCs)
Could they use scouts/guides to get past the royal patrol?
How about we wait here and let them go about whatever they are doing since they haven't seen us yet?

Every encounter is not a fight. Much easier to learn at 1st level then it is at 8th level.

 

[SpiderMonkey]

Then why don't we just get rid of levels altogether then? Or make the standard that 3rd level is and make that 1st level. Heck, let's get rid of levels all together so that we can get away from this discussion of crunching numbers altogether.

Huh.

I don't think that discussing a starting a game at 3rd level by necessity negates the concepts of levels altogether. This argument is a classic example of the slippery slope fallacy.

Mutants and Masterminds comes immediately to mind as the rebuttal. PCs start of at Power Level 10 as the default. This represents the fact that not everyone is a superhero. Regular police officers might be a 3 or 4 PL, supersweetninjas(l33t) might be as high as 6. Superman, however, is at a 15. If you want to play a street level game, start as a 7. Want to be in the Justice League? Go for 13.

I think the thing to remember is that levels are not an absolute value, particularly as far as the PCs being used as the measuring stick. 1st and 2nd level NPCs are still out there as apprentices, novices, and perhaps even talented but untrained individuals. Starting at 3rd level is a good compromise between begin Uber, and somebody's sidekick.

That being said, I still like first level.

 

[Brian Gibbons]

Why do players hate levels 1 and 2 so much?

Simple. Generally speaking, people play D&D because they enjoy playing D&D. The lower the level, the less D&D-content in the game.

At 1st level, very little that matters will be determined by your PC's abilities, because you have very few of them. Save for a few outliers (e.g., the 20 Str half-orc barbarian), your odds of succeeding at a skill check or attack roll will be determined largely by the dice roll, as your paltry bonuses will be swamped by the randomness of the d20.

At high levels, your PC's abilities, spells and items will save the day. At low levels, the player's ability to sweet-talk the GM into letting you put into practice your clever use for a dead pig and a 10' pole will be far more important.

And, hey, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Lots of people enjoy (nay, prefer) that type of play-style.

The problem is that you can get that type of play-style in any game. A 1st level D&D game isn't that much different than a 1st level game of another system. Which, if you were sitting down to play D&D because you wanted to actually play D&D, is a bit of a problem.

 

[JDJblatherings]

WTF?

You beat me to this with your response. How is that a minor speed bump for an 8th level party?

Plus, you might, as a 1st level party, kill one or two stragglers from the hobgoblin party but you can do nothing but run (not even in terror because you will make too much noise).

Unless you are a human with 18 CHR, skill focus diplomacy, 4 ranks in diplomacy, negotiator feat for a total of +13 in diplomacy, somehow manage to approach through rock throwing distance and get within yelling distance, roll a 20 on a diplomacy check (twenty minutes) on both groups of 50 hobgoblins. Of course they will have to roll a 1 on an opposed check. Assuming the hobgoblins are indifferent towards the PC, this would move them to helpful. Then have then form up into two mobs using the PHBII, drop all gear, other than weapons, and attack the firegiant. Sit back and enjoy. Of course, you have to hope the fire giant is amused at the attepmt and doesn't squash you while you try this and you have a DM who would allow such a dump thing, otherwise, resort to running.

Maybe I've under reated the impact of this encounter with 5 eight level PCs. It still has a very different impact and tone then it does if they were 8th level but there is a world of options beyond a straight up fight or flight (as the option above demonstrates even if it is a bit iffy) and players learn this better starting at 1st level.

 

[Nifft]

all of the options aren't die or run away.

what are the hobgoblins carrying?
where did they get it?
why are they nervous?
where are they going?
have they travelled far?
do they have to travel far?
Where the heck did the firgiant come from?
If he (the fire giant) isn't the boss, who is?
Who should jnow about this?
Can we (the PC's) profit from this?
Is there weak oposition with stuff to loot left behind? (for the unethical PCs)
Could they use scouts/guides to get past the royal patrol?
How about we wait here and let them go about whatever they are doing since they haven't seen us yet?

Right. Hide or run away.

The rest aren't options. They're questions the PCs can answer, not actions the PCs can take.

IMHO this is an excellent opportunity for an event to happen out of game. In the precious few hours I have to play, I don't want unexciting things to happen, and I don't want to force my PCs into unexciting situations.

If they realistically have very few options, pick the smartest (or most fun) option, assume they took it, and let them read about the results. Then, start the action where the PC's choices start to matter, and let them have some fun with the exciting parts of the game.

Maybe if my group had a lot more time, we'd get to enjoy playing 1st & 2nd level more. But we don't have much time at all. We need to cut to the chase.

Cheers, -- N

 

[green slime]

all of the options aren't die or run away.

what are the hobgoblins carrying?
where did they get it?
why are they nervous?
where are they going?
have they travelled far?
do they have to travel far?
Where the heck did the firgiant come from?
If he (the fire giant) isn't the boss, who is?
Who should jnow about this?
Can we (the PC's) profit from this?
Is there weak oposition with stuff to loot left behind? (for the unethical PCs)
Could they use scouts/guides to get past the royal patrol?
How about we wait here and let them go about whatever they are doing since they haven't seen us yet?

Every encounter is not a fight. Much easier to learn at 1st level then it is at 8th level.

Hear hear!

 

[Jedi_Solo]

Every encounter is not a fight. Much easier to learn at 1st level then it is at 8th level.

Actually I'd say play-group and DMing style have more to do with it than level. A new player to the group may join at 8th level and the players of 1st level characters might have been playing D&D for 10 years (and started a new campaign two weeks ago).

At first level the DM uses a Fire Giant. At eighth level it's an Advanced Great Red Wyrm. Both scream "You don't want to fight this!!!"

 

[DM-Rocco]

Maybe I've under reated the impact of this encounter with 5 eight level PCs. It still has a very different impact and tone then it does if they were 8th level but there is a world of options beyond a straight up fight or flight (as the option above demonstrates even if it is a bit iffy) and players learn this better starting at 1st level.

Um, you do know I was having fun at your expense don't you? I wasn't really on your side here.

Although, for the record, I do think 1st level has its place. But, mostly I think anything but a quick progression to 2nd or 3rd is a waste of time. You can get a sense of background and purpose in other ways. Although, the more I think about it, the more I am digging on the saga thing.

SOOOOOOO. That said and now that everyone hates 1st level. How many people would foo foo the idea of a 0th level start? *avoids thrown kittens from bleeding 1st level noobs*