Why do most groups avoid planar games?

[Afrodyte]

Oryan,

I'm not too psyched about planar campaigns, and it is for precisely the reasons why you like it. There is simply too much. Too much information, too much defined, too much explained...too much, too much, too much. The only place I've read about the planes in any detail is in the DMG, and what I saw there did not inspire much. Even as generic as they are described in the DMG, they are far too specific. If I'm going to play with alternate realities, I want alternate realities. I want the rules that govern the way things are to be different, not just geography. What I want planes to do is to challenge the way I tend to see things. With the D&D planar cosmology, it is difficult to do that because it's already made clear what's what.

 

[Mercule]

This one deserves its own reply.

Have any of you guys thought that maybe you don't like planar games because your perception of them is limited & will eventually become boring pretty quick because it's not very creative?

No. I actually tend to think that I don't like planar games because I want some actual meat to the story rather than seeking shiny baubles like a ferret with ADD. But, too each their own.

 

[Oryan77]

I must be on your ignore list, then.

Most of what Celebrim said goes for me, too. At least enough of it that I don't mind the association.

There's a lot of posts in this thread. I don't remember reading a specific example from you so I only mentioned Celebrims "specific" example of his ideas of the planes. I'm not referring to the broad answer of "They are epic & mysterious". Celebrim gave a good example of how he conciders them to be mysterious.

If I hear this one more time, I'm going to go into outright flame mode.

If that's what you resort to in good discussions, that's between you and the mods. This is the 2nd time you've had the impression that my posts are directed solely at you...there are other posters here too ya know. I've already heard what you had to say, which was great, thanks. I even referred to what you said a few posts ago. I wrote the above statement to hear others thoughts. No need to get the thread closed with pointless flames.

 

[Roman]

Celebrim has said much I agree with.

Personally, I do not dislike the planes, but I consider the Great Wheel panes to be too mundane to be planes in my campaign. My planar cosmology is not well defined and it does not need to be since my players take little if any interest in it at all, but if I were to flesh it out the planes would have to be drastically different from the 'prime material plane'. I would probably go as far as the planes being completely immaterial, so characters cannot actually physically travel there - their souls can go there when they die, or at best they can project their minds into the planes but not their bodies - hence no slaying somebody on the planes with a sword... Normal senses might not work on the planes either - instead one would only be able to sense feelings - happiness, sorrow, pain, pleasure, love, hate, etc. and concepts. As you can see my view as to what planes should be like does not allow for truly planar campaigns. Sure, it does enable an infrequent indirect mental foray into the planes for brief periods of time, but not sustained planar campaigns.

As to outsiders, IMC they are unable to enter the prime material plane unless summoned/called - excepting special circumstances. When they enter the material plane they manifest physical bodies. Not that any of this has really come into play.

 

[Celebrim]

I don't think this is a typical scenario for Prime worlds unless you do some hefty tweaking to the setting.

Sure it is. Paraphrasing.

Nations are at thier heart all about ideologies. For example, there is a border Barony between two rival nations called 'Fortitude'. The Harmonium Faction within Fortitude - which loyally supports the Baron - is planning a ceremony that will unite the entire cities citizens together. The Baron, who is a Paladin, feels that once he has the people's good will, he can safely switch allegiances to the more lawfully aligned Kingdom of Arcadia across the border - shifting the balance of power in the region in favor of law and good, and hopefully improving the citizen's quality of life. The PC's are sent on a quest to retrieve a legendary item that once it is in the hands of the Paladin will greatly increase is reputation and authority, thus uniting the populace behind him. Depending on events, Fortitude could become nuetral, switch its allegiance to Arcadia, or the Paladin could be assassinated and the Barony usurped by a more chaotic neighbor. Whatever happens, the PC's are likely to have made both enemies and friends in Fortitude and the larger world.

Ultimately, its a very simple 'fetch and return' quest. Your scenario is powerful only if the player's believe something more than the above has happened when the border town 'slides'. But ultimately the story is the same, and the scale is the same. The only difference is the relative number of bumps and horns on the heads of the town's citizen's.

 

[Oryan77]

Oryan,

I'm not too psyched about planar campaigns, and it is for precisely the reasons why you like it. There is simply too much. Too much information, too much defined, too much explained...too much, too much, too much. The only place I've read about the planes in any detail is in the DMG, and what I saw there did not inspire much. Even as generic as they are described in the DMG, they are far too specific. If I'm going to play with alternate realities, I want alternate realities. I want the rules that govern the way things are to be different, not just geography. What I want planes to do is to challenge the way I tend to see things. With the D&D planar cosmology, it is difficult to do that because it's already made clear what's what.

I can completely understand that. I even feel overwhelmed with planar fluff sometimes. I'll read things that Shemeshka or others talk about and I'll be thinking, "Huh? That's pretty descriptive & interesting, where did they get that info from?"

The DMG though isn't the best place to get a taste of what planar games are like. I agree, it doesn't inspire me much either. As far as being too specific though, you never have to use fluff if you don't want it. I think every planar DM changes things (even major things) here and there. Keep in mind too though, the planes are so big that even the Planescape setting doesn't cover everything in detail. There's PLENTY of material for you to create on your own. I'm actually the exact opposite, I like fluff being specific. I feed off of whatever info I read about and I'll add or change it as I see fit.

If you want to be inspired with much better text, check out a 2e PS book, any 2e PS book. They are written so well. It's actually entertaining to read them, unlike the DMG and Manual of the Planes.

 

[Celebrim]

This is the 2nd time you've had the impression that my posts are directed solely at you...there are other posters here too ya know.

And this is the second time you've been wrong in making that assertion. I did not feel that your post was directed directly at me. I felt it was directed at 'you guys', and that you guys seemed to imply 'you guys [that have a limited perception of the planes]' . I believe that you were including me in that definition because earlier - when you refered to me - you specifically noted that I had 'limited' ideas.

So, on behalf of myself and everyone else whom you aren't understanding, I thought I'd show you how 'limited' your perception of our objections actually are, and disabuse you of the idea that your ideas were somehow broader than mine. And, that in fact, if it can be said that we have 'limited perceptions' of the planes, then we equally could reply that from our perspective you were the one with 'limited perceptions'.

As for why I'm going to flame the next person that says something like that, I consider 'limited perceptions' and all its euphamisms to be a tactful synonym for 'ignorant' and I'm tired of hearing people who clearly don't get what I'm saying and who are willfully mischaracterizing what I'm saying accuse me of ignorance.

Get this once and for all. I don't believe what I believe because I have limited horizons, limited ideas, limited imagination, limited perceptions, or limited knowledge compared to you.

 

[philreed]

It looks like the answer is "Because planar games are perceived as goofy and more work for the DM than they're worth."

That does seem to be a general feeling of many.

There's no right or wrong answer. It's all just opinions and what one group likes another one doesn't. I just thought I'd try and get a feel for what others thought. (And man, this thread certainly turned out longer than I expected.)

 

[Oryan77]

Sure it is. Paraphrasing.

Nice paraphrasing. But I mean, you can relate a scenario to any other scenario no matter what. It's all in the creativness on how you introduce it....which is all I'm saying. Like you and I have already agreed on before, the planes are nothing more than Prime worlds with window dressing. What I'm saying is that people seem to think Planes aren't...but they can't give examples of how they are different. And if they did give examples, I'm sure I could do just what you did and show them that you can run their version of the planes on a prime world with just different approaches of handling the same scenarios. Then I'd say, why would I want to run a prime game when I can do that in my planar game.

Like I've been saying, planar games are just another setting. It's another way to try and give more flavor or weirdness to a fantasy game. An entire city moving from one land to another is much more dramatic to me than just uniting 2 cities. You still influenced the citizens and on top of that, you caused a freaking city to change locations! Mercule wanted an example of something you couldn't "normally" do on a Prime, and I gave him an example of a 6th lvl party causing an entire city to move. You can argue and say, "but I can do that in my custom world"....sure you can, but then that's a reason why you won't like the planes...you are already cheapening the planes by taking it's "mystical" properties and sticking them on the prime. Which makes the planes that much less "mystical".

 

[philreed]

You can argue and say, "but I can do that in my custom world"....sure you can, but then that's a reason why you won't like the planes...you are already cheapening the planes by taking it's "mystical" properties and sticking them on the prime. Which makes the planes that much less "mystical".

Or their "prime" world is in fact a demiplane of its own in which rules of physics and magic work very differently. I mean, just because player characters think they're on a material plane world doesn't make it so -- how would your players react if one day they discovered that their world was a fragment of a dying kobold's imagination and unless they find a way to save the kobold their world would end?