D&D 5E Why do so few 5E monsters have save proficiencies?

[Charlaquin]

With the house-rules we are using at present, all monsters get save proficiency in all saves (but so do PCs) in balance to monsters having half the HP. (FWIW, they also get a +4 AC bump).

Monsters which actually have saves listed in their stat block now get advantage on those saves.

It works for us. shrug

Seems like this would strongly favor spells that require attack rolls over spells that force saves.

Obviously if it works for you, more power to you. Just making an observation.

 

[NotAYakk]

Seems like this would strongly favor spells that require attack rolls over spells that force saves.

Obviously if it works for you, more power to you. Just making an observation.

Not really? +4 AC is close enough to +proficiency.

Really, it rewards damage over status conditions.

 

[Charlaquin]

Not really? +4 AC is close enough to +proficiency.

Really, it rewards damage over status conditions.

Oh, my bad, I missed the +4 AC.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Not really? +4 AC is close enough to +proficiency.

Really, it rewards damage over status conditions.

Not really. Since damage is more likely to be reduced with save proficiency it seems to even out. I haven't done extensive math on it, but anecdotally that seems to be the case.

Regardless, if you want a more AD&D feel to the game, the rules work well for that IME.

Obviously if it works for you, more power to you. Just making an observation.

Yep, we like it. Makes combat more interesting as well IMO.

 

[NotAYakk]

Not really. Since damage is more likely to be reduced with save proficiency it seems to even out. I haven't done extensive math on it, but anecdotally that seems to be the case.

Did I hear you say "could you please do math on it"? I think I did.

Suppose you are attacking a save with an X% chance to fail (aka hit). With save-for-half and D damage if they fail, you do

D*X% + D 1/2 (1-X%) = D( X% - 1/2 + X% ) = D/2 + 1.5X% D

Monsters have H hp. So your spell does D/H (0.5 + 1.5X%) of the monster's HP.

Now suppose you have a save-or-suck-so-much-you-might-as-well-be-dead. (Lesser save or sucks can be viewed as percentages of that). This has an X% chance of landing, and if it does it nullifies H HP in a foe. So its effectiveness is H/H * X% = X%.

Afterwards, we halve H and lower X by 0.2

Before damage: D/H (0.5 + 1.5X%)
Before suck: X%

After damage: D/(H/2) (0.5 + 1.5(X%-.2)) = 2D/H (0.2 + 1.5X%) = D/H(0.4 + 3X%)
After suck: X%-.2

Safe-for-half spells are net improved by this change. A fireball can take out more "total CR" in foes after your change, on average, than it could before in every reasonable case.

Meanwhile, save-or-suck got strictly worse.

For fixed numbers, assume a 50% chance to fail.

Before, 50% suck, and 1.25 D/H damage.
After, 30% suck, and 1.9 D/H damage.

Your fireball gets 52% more effective at killing stuff, while your hypnotic pattern gets 40% worse at shutting them down.

 

[Nebulous]

In in the Kobold Press monster manuals, baddies get much, much better saves than core monsters.

 

[Dragonsbane]

I give all monsters 2 good saves and a few skills. Always.

 

[BlivetWidget]

I suspect monsters don't get save proficiency very often to ensure that monsters fail saves more often than players. Exceptions are made only when that extra high defense is a significant part of the monster. Personally, I'm content with that, as it's one fewer thing to check when running monsters.

This, but I would go a step further to say that in general, 5e monsters have low AC & low saves paired with high health, as compared to their adventuring opponents. I would call this good design because it averages out the effects of player attacks and allows them to progress through a combat encounter. If instead you gave monsters low health with high AC & high saves, your monster is 100% scary until someone gets a lucky roll and then it's 100% dead.

Their other approach is to use a bunch of weak monsters, so there are of course a fair number of cannon fodder types as well. But for dangerous foes, obviously there are monsters with very high stats overall, but I still claim that in general, the game designers intended you to fight through a health pool rather than play rocket tag.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Did I hear you say "could you please do math on it"? I think I did.

No, you didn't. But, hey if you want to spend your weekend that way knock yourself out--wait, you already did I guess.

 

[NotAYakk]

No, you didn't. But, hey if you want to spend your weekend that way knock yourself out--wait, you already did I guess.

I must have mistranslated your emoji. They are tricky.