Why do so many people refer to Forgotten Realms as "High Magic?"

[hong]

This is different than Greyhawk, for instance, because there's a lot of people with fighter-style classes, only really one way to do magic, which is still a secretive kind of coven, and the gods don't regularly make uber NPC's.

For frick's sake! Iuz rules an entire kingdom directly to the north of Furyondy. How is that not an uber NPC?

Basically, I guess there's more commoners in GH than in FR. And that means that FR has more magic than the norm.

There are absolutely no rules in the FRCS for how many commoners there are as a percentage of the population, or what level they may be. That means you fall back as a default on the rules in the DMG, or you make your own numbers up. In this respect FR is exactly the same as Greyhawk.

The roots of this, as I understand it, is that FR has a lot of fallen empires of magic, and not all of those secrets are still forgotten.

Suel Imperium. Baklunish Empire. Invoked Devastation. Rain of Colorless Fire.

 

[DragonLancer]

I have played in and run FR during 2nd edition. Its not really my cup of tea but I don't look down on FR for that reason.

Why is FR high magic? There are a two reasons in my mind.

1. NPC's.
You have characters like Elminster, Khelban Blackstaff, and all the powerful spellcasters whose names slip me as I write this. They are all way up there or even (looking at them in 2nd ed terms) Epic level characters. Each magical items up the wazhoo.

2. Magic as technology.
This is my pet peev with D&D, so its not just FR - just more prevelent there. I can't speak for 3rd edition FR but previously you would have magic replacing mundane jobs or items. Waterdeep had continual light globes in the street (streetlights) instead of torches for example. Nah.

 

[Dark Jezter]

...Which is why the upcoming Player's Guide to the FR will include a writeup for the Karsus' Avatar spell as an epic spell.

Heh. You're talking about previous editions here; no matter what flavor text might (or might not) say, the 3.0 and (especially) 3.5 rules don't really seem to reflect that part of back story.
(But then, maybe the current Mystra just changed how things work; she's not the person who set up that limit in the first place. Either that, or else they just retconned it to reflect the new edition of D&D. In any case, epic-level spells seem to be available in the FR. And that means that there is only a practical limit to how powerful spells can get - namely the availability of really really high-level spellcaster with the appropriate feat.)

Page 262 of the FRCS...

The goddess of magic was reincarnated as Mystra, and in recreating the Weave was able to safely bring to earth three of the flying cities - Anauria, Asram, and Hlondath - that were high above the ground at the time of Karsus' act. This new weave had stricter requirements for spellcasting, preventing the heights of power and destruction the Netherese had attained. Clerics of Mystra were told the truth of the fall of Netheril as a warning that such a thing might never happen again.​

Going by that passage, it puzzles me why the Karsus' Avatar spell is being included in the Player's Guide to the Realms. Perhaps if the PCs wanted to run a game that took place before the fall of Netheril?

Also, while not everyone might have spellcasting ability (which is a rather high-powered definition of 'high magic' anyway), it's a setting assumption in the FR that arcane spellcasters are more common than given in the DMG. For example, I refer you to p.297 of the FRCS, where it is stated:

Ah! I'd forgotten about that rule. Good job spotting it!

Still, I would be hesitant to classify FR as a high magic setting. Although it would certainly be a "somewhat higher magic than normal" setting.

Other ways are to have oppressive governments or powerful religions that outlaw magic or are doing their best to make it rare. Have them regulated by the powers that be.

In the Forgotten Realms, there are places where arcane magic is strictly regulated or even outlawed. In Waterdeep, Wizards and Sorcerers must register (and pay membership fees) with the local mage guild if they want to do any spellcasting there. In Amn, the population fears magic so much that arcane spellcasting is all but illegal. Warriors from many Uthgart tribes would rather fight unarmed than touch a weapon created by an arcane spellcaster.

Can't think of any more examples right now, though. I'm tired and need some sleep.

 

[Darkness]

Page 262 of the FRCS...

The goddess of magic was reincarnated as Mystra, and in recreating the Weave was able to safely bring to earth three of the flying cities - Anauria, Asram, and Hlondath - that were high above the ground at the time of Karsus' act. This new weave had stricter requirements for spellcasting, preventing the heights of power and destruction the Netherese had attained. Clerics of Mystra were told the truth of the fall of Netheril as a warning that such a thing might never happen again.​

Yah, I know. But that that Mystra died during the Time of Troubles; I was just wondering whether the new Mystra (formerly known as Midnight) might have changed matters. Because...​

Going by that passage, it puzzles me why the Karsus' Avatar spell is being included in the Player's Guide to the Realms.

...even leaving Karsus' Avatar aside, epic spells certainly exist in the FR. And that enables epic-level spellcasters to create their own spells of this, or even greater, power. Which the current Mystra doesn't prevent.

Perhaps if the PCs wanted to run a game that took place before the fall of Netheril?

Yah, that puzzled me as well. 'cause even when playing in Netheril, I'm not sure how many DMs would need detailed rules for that spell. But then, maybe they just wanted to set an example of a truly powerful epic spell. *shrug* Time will tell, I suppose; it's not too unlikely that they put in a disclaimer or explanation of some sort.

Still, I would be hesitant to classify FR as a high magic setting. Although it would certainly be a "somewhat higher magic than normal" setting.

Look, it's really jjust a question of what definition one uses.
Going by what the DMG says, it ain't a high magic setting. But the DMG definition is way above where the term 'high magic' begins when you go by way the term is generally used.
(Kinda like the D&D definition of 'epic' should better be called 'uber-powerful'. 'cause you can have epic adventures even at medium character levels - e.g., Frodo != epic-level - whereas a high power level doesn't necessarily make an adventure epic in the literary sense.)

 

[TiQuinn]

Suel Imperium. Baklunish Empire. Invoked Devastation. Rain of Colorless Fire.

All of which exist as nothing but backstory. There's no Epic level spell called "Invoke Devastation" or "Call Rain of Colorless Fire". If the DM includes anything about the old Suel or Baklunish Empires, it's stuff that he made up.

FR has gone that extra distance of providing stats and descriptions for a lot of things that would probably remain backstory in other campaigns. Things like Spellfire, High Magic, spells and items from Myth Drannor and Netheril, etc.

Of course, a big part of that is because GH isn't supported anymore. If it had been supported to the extent FR is, I've no doubt we would've seen a lot more development of the Old Suel Empire and the like.

 

[hong]

All of which exist as nothing but backstory. There's no Epic level spell called "Invoke Devastation" or "Call Rain of Colorless Fire". If the DM includes anything about the old Suel or Baklunish Empires, it's stuff that he made up.

FR has gone that extra distance of providing stats and descriptions for a lot of things that would probably remain backstory in other campaigns. Things like Spellfire, High Magic, spells and items from Myth Drannor and Netheril, etc.

Of course, a big part of that is because GH isn't supported anymore. If it had been supported to the extent FR is, I've no doubt we would've seen a lot more development of the Old Suel Empire and the like.

Exactly. The biggest charge that can be levelled against FR is that it's a more _developed_ game world than GH. That's a simple consequence of being the core focus for TSR's developmental efforts for something like 15 years. However, it's also got nothing to do with high, low, or in-between magic.

 

[GravyFingerz]

...Which is why the upcoming Player's Guide to the FR will include a writeup for the Karsus' Avatar spell as an epic spell.

Actually, one of the authors recently mentioned that Karsus's Avatar was cut from the book (albeit for space reasons), but you are right in the sense that it was going to be in the book. We might never see it though.

 

[Berandor]

Well, in a general sense, D&D already qualifies as at least close to High Magic.
What I think many mean when calling FR High Magic is the common approach it takes to magic. There are a lot of magical phenomena or powerful spellcasters that it's not really special. It's not "fantastic" in a sense that the inhabitants of the Realms will be impressed when faced with magical power.
And then there's things like a 24th level wizard living as a shopkeep in (insert Cormish city here), as Volo's Guide to Cormyr tells us.

 

[Zarrock God of Evil]

...even leaving Karsus' Avatar aside, epic spells certainly exist in the FR. And that enables epic-level spellcasters to create their own spells of this, or even greater, power. Which the current Mystra doesn't prevent.
Yah, that puzzled me as well. 'cause even when playing in Netheril, I'm not sure how many DMs would need detailed rules for that spell. But then, maybe they just wanted to set an example of a truly powerful epic spell. *shrug* Time will tell, I suppose; it's not too unlikely that they put in a disclaimer or explanation of some sort.
Look, it's really jjust a question of what definition one uses.
Going by what the DMG says, it ain't a high magic setting. But the DMG definition is way above where the term 'high magic' begins when you go by way the term is generally used.
(Kinda like the D&D definition of 'epic' should better be called 'uber-powerful'. 'cause you can have epic adventures even at medium character levels - e.g., Frodo != epic-level - whereas a high power level doesn't necessarily make an adventure epic in the literary sense.)

Someone - I think it was Sean K Reynolds on his boards - noted that epic level spells are not bound by the restriction that banned 10th-12th level spells (and neither are spells metamagicked to that level). So none of these fall for the restriction.
From what I've heard about the epic spell, though, it's horribly difficult to cast (spellcraft DC 265) and the god you target by the spell has full knowledge of the casting and can choose to interrupt it should he so wish. Either Karsus wasn't bound by these limitations before the Weave was reworked or the extremely rare components he used lowered the DC to a level where he could cast it (he used parts of a great wyrm gold dragon and the tarresque among other things). Why Mystryl didn't react is a mystery but it is likely that she was restricted from acting against the first casting of a new spell by her portfolio (I think the old Netheril boxed set insinuated that would not believe Karsus would be foolish enough to cast it on her). My guess is the only reason the spell was included was to showcase the highest level of power wielded on Faerûn and followingly - why it's hopeless attempting to use it...

Anyhow, the restrictions dealt not only with the high level spells. Other wonders of Netheril (the Mythallar that powered the cities) and the "heavy magic" (solid magical matter of some sort as far as I recollect) all ceased functioning after the catastrophe.

-Zarrock

 

[WizarDru]

Correct or not, the perception that FR is 'high magic' exists for several reasons.

1) The lack of the perception of the fantastic: the realms is stuffed full of odd occurences, heavily magical anomalies and the imposition of the fantastic upon the everyday. Contrast the entries from the Living Greyhawk Journal versus the monthly FR updates in Dragon over the last few years. In the LGJ, I see a write up on a location of a deserted town where a mysterious figure and his golem guard a portal, hidden far away the eyes of men. Very little actual informaiton is given, and it's left mysterious. Compare this with the any of the two-page spreads of recent Dragon issues, where any single item on the page would be interesting write-up...but there's something like 10 separate items usually present. The FR entries feel like they're turned up to 11.

2) Implied Setting levels: Lots of FR details imply a hgher magic feel. Darkness mentioned the increased number and level of mages above. Further, there are so many everyday occurences of magic in the printed materials, that FR appears (whether true or not) to have a stronger magic presence. Compare the one isle of the elves in FR with the one in Greyhawk. In Greyhawk, the elves forced all the humans to leave. No one knows why. In the Realms, they established their home, and have a legion of elven dragon-riders in suspended animation living under the island, ready to defend the island at a moment's notice.

Pick up a copy of any Volo's guide...Greyhawk just doesn't have giant spectral hands appearing in the middle of every other street, like Waterdeep does. Greyhawk doesn't have two super-dungeon settings like Myth Drannor (a dungeon city) AND the thing under Waterdeep (undermountain?). While there are powerful NPCs in both settings, Mordankanien is just the head of a group dedicated to keeping things as the status quo in Greyhawk...he's a mcguffin to get an adventure started. Elminster is an avatar of the goddess of magic. He's not just a powerful character, he's an apsect of the Realms and a part of their setting. Mordankanien can be easily migrated to another setting with little effort, Elminster can't.


3) The novels. The novels, the novels, the novels. There are quite a few of them, and the lens of detail they shine increases the perception of the widespread availability of magic. Greyhawk's biggest campaign spanning event was the Greyhawk Wars and possibly the Flight of Fiends. Compare and contrast with the Time of Troubles. Then consider that the ToT occured, what, fifteen years ago? The presence of the novels contributes to the volume of the setting. I don't know any of the warriors that were mentioned above, and I've never read any of the novels. But I know about Elminster's widespread exposure and I know who Manshoon is.

4) Unique magical mechanics. Greyhawk, as the generic setting, lacks some of the magical add-ons of other settings. FR is hardly unique in this respect, but it's the most popular setting, so it becomes the most popular target. I don't know what wild magic, spellfire and the shadow weave are, exactly, (even though I have the FRCS, it proved too dense for me) but they are very famous features of the setting, and contribute to it's reputation.

None of which is to say that, for an individual game, FR has any more or less magic than Greyhawk or the standard D&D setting. For every Manshoon in FR, there's a Drax or Iuz in Greyhawk. For every fallen Netheril empire, there was the Ur-Flan or Suel Empire. Stylistically, they are quite similar.

The difference is that it appears (and I won't claim that I know for sure either way, being no FR expert) that FR is super-saturated with magic occurences, items, equipment and characters far in excess of Greyhawk and some other settings. That isn't a problem, but some folks find it unappealing.