Why do Sorcerers have to take a full round action to use a metamagic rod?

[Thanee]

I see no good reason for allowing the rods to be spontaneously used by wizards (greatly empowering wizards) but not effectively used by sorcerers.

If the cost is paid for the rod, it ought to give the same benefits to both. I can see no reasonable grounds for smacking sorcerers who have the temerity to attempt to use a metamagic rod.

Exactly, this rule discrepancy is just stupid, and I will definitely and happily ignore this one.

Out of interest, I've not got any book with the 'sudden' metamagic feats in. How do those work for sorcerers? Are they able to use them normally or do they restrict sorcerers with those too?

They work just the same. No increase in casting time.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Falling Icicle]

The base rule about spontaneous meta-magic serves 2 important functions.

It puts a speed bump on sorcerers who get around preparing spells in the first place. They did not have to place forethought into what spells they would alter that day, so they have to pay by spending extra time in casting.

It prevents sorcerers from using quicken spell. An important thing since they have so many spell slots, sacrificing higher level spell hurts them far less than a non-spontaneous caster.

I understand why the base rule about spontaneous use of metamagic exists, and with the exception of Quicken Spell, I agree with it.

However, we're talking about the benefit gained from an item here. Why should a Sorcerer get less benefit from an item than a Wizard? Is a Sorcerer using his rod to cast 3 quicken spells per day any more powerful than a Wizard doing so?

 

[Jhulae]

Well, I'm on the side of it being fine the way it is spelled out in the FAQ. Um, no pun intended.

My reasoning is the sorcerer's amount of available spells and the fact they're always available, as others have said.

Look at it this way. The party is fighting Monster X.

First instance, Spell D would be the spell to use to take it out. The wizard has prepared Spells A, A, B, C, and D, not knowing what dangers would be faced during the day. She only has one optimal spell to boost against Monster X.

The sorcerer on the other hand, knows spells A, B, C, and D and has many casting slots available. She can now maximize spell D three times against Monster X, making the encounter that much easier for her party, but at the cost of each casting being a full round.

The sorcerer's versatility, in this case, balances the item for the extra time.

That being said, I don't think it's a gamebreaker to let the Sorcerer (or Bard) use the item like the Wizard can.

 

[Thanee]

That being said, I don't think it's a gamebreaker to let the Sorcerer (or Bard) use the item like the Wizard can.

The item is fine for a sorcerer, it's way too powerful for a wizard, though, if they are allowed to spontaneously apply the metamagic depending on the situation, which is something wizards - by design - cannot do. This is especially true with Quicken Spell.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

No, it's the other way around. It's great for Wizards and good for Sorcerers.

Wizards gain a lot more from this PrC.

You'll have to explain this.

1) The main advantage Wizards get with this over Sorcerers is for the Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect abilities. Wizards are more capable of using these abilities. But in practice, these abilities probably rarely come into play for either class.

2) Wizards have one additional feat over Sorcerers, so they have a very slim advantage (hardly noticable) for Metamagic Spell Trigger.


The advantages Sorcerers get with this over Wizards are:

1) Wizards give up two feats to take this PrC. Sorcerers give up 0 feats. Both classes gain 4 metamagic feats, but Sorcerers are more starved for feats than Wizards (having two less, Scribe Scroll and the Wizard's 5th level feat). By 16th level, a Wizard goes from 8 feats to 12 feats with this PrC, but a Sorcerer goes from 6 feats to 10 feats. Normally, a Wizard has 4 more feats that a Sorcerer at 16th level, but here the Wizard only has 2 more feats. Even if a Wizard goes into a third PrC at 16th level (the earliest he can do so and still have 10 levels of Incantatrix), he still will only typically gain one more feat.

2) Without Arcane Preparation or the PHB II shorter duration metamagic for a Sorcerer, he cannot Quicken spells at all. Instant Metamagic gives him an ability that he could typically not previously do (and he could still combine it with these other two abilities if desired). Sorcerers already have Spontaneous Metamagic for all of their metamagic, but Instant Metamagic can give them 2 Quickened spells per day (or two boosted spells like Wizards). Sure, Wizards can now do two Instant Metamagicks per day, but they still have to prepare the vast majority of their metamagic spells ahead of time which means that for most of their metamagic spells, they have to guess (unless they have open spells slots and the time to prep a spell as needed). Sorcerers do not have to guess.

3) A significant advantage Sorcerers have over other casters who prepare spells is Spontaneous Metamagic. This advantage is huge, but was tempered by the fact that Sorcerers are so feat starved. Without this PrC, the Sorcerer could gain at most 8 (9 if Human) metamagic feats by 18th level (assuming he could not take a different PrC that gives him a lot of feats). With this PrC, the Sorcerer can gain 12 (or 13) metamagic feats. This really opens up the door for a Sorcerer. He can use some of his normal feats for things other than metamagic feats and still get an extremely good selection of metamagic feats. Sure, this applies to a Wizard as well, but again, Wizards only gain 2 net feats to a Sorcerers 4 net feats when taking the PrC. And again, Wizards have to guess which spells to prepare with their metamagic. If they either guess wrong on the spell or on the metamagic (e.g. Widened Fireball instead of Empowered Fireball, or Widened Fireball instead of Widened Cone of Cold), they are at a disadvantage. With a good spell selection, Sorcerers are rarely at a disadvantage for not having a good spell to cast.

4) Sorcerers can cast a lot more spells per day than Wizards and with the losing of a Prohibited School, this really is not a good choice for Specialized Wizards. Hence, this means that Sorcerers gain an exponential increase in the number of different types of spells they can cast. Need Widened Fireball? Check. Need Empowered Fireball? Check. Need Silent Fireball? Check.

It's a matter of math. When compared to a Sorcerer with the PrC to one without:

x spells * y metamagic effects versus x spells * (y-4) metamagic effects

And that's if a Sorcerer Incantatrix merely uses one metamagic feat. When using multiple metamagic feats on the same spell and especially using Improved Metamagic, the number of choices increases exponentially.

Wizards are not only limited to what spells they prepared ahead of time with metamagic, but every spell they prepare for one specific metamagic effects is one less higher level spell slot they have for something else they would normally do. So if they guess wrong, they have lost a precious higher level spell slot. Sorcerers have more higher level spell slots to burn (especially at even levels).


Sorcerers are the metamagic kings (shy of Warmages and such). Any PrC that gives them metamagic advantages by definition would have to have a lot of other significant advantages for Wizards to knock them off that pedestal.

 

[KarinsDad]

I see no good reason for allowing the rods to be spontaneously used by wizards (greatly empowering wizards) but not effectively used by sorcerers.

So, you think that a Ring of Wizardry should double the number of Cleric spells of a given level per day as well?

You do not think there should be any items that give an advantage to one class if it does not give the same or similar advantage to all classes?

 

[glass]

Well, I'm on the side of it being fine the way it is spelled out in the FAQ. Um, no pun intended. My reasoning is the sorcerer's amount of available spells and the fact they're always available, as others have said.

That is also true, to varying extents, of Warmages, Bards, Favoured Souls, Dread Necromancers, and others. Why should they be different?


glass.

 

[Thanee]

You'll have to explain this.

Sure.

1) The main advantage Wizards get with this over Sorcerers is for the Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect abilities. Wizards are more capable of using these abilities. But in practice, these abilities probably rarely come into play for either class.

Metamagic Effect is crazy powerful, and the advantage Wizards have here is huge, they can easily use it with higher spell levels and have a lot more uses per day thanks to their higher Int. It grants a lot of spontaneous use as well, it's just not great in combat, but there are many more situations where metamagic is useful (Cooperative Metamagic is very nice for empowering the Cleric's healing spells, BTW, or extending their buffs).

1) Wizards give up two feats to take this PrC.

Wizards give up nothing in practice (only in theory). Wizards do not have more than 6 wizard class levels typically, most often only 5.

2) Without Arcane Preparation or the PHB II shorter duration metamagic for a Sorcerer, he cannot Quicken spells at all. Instant Metamagic gives him an ability that he could typically not previously do (and he could still combine it with these other two abilities if desired). Sorcerers already have Spontaneous Metamagic for all of their metamagic, but Instant Metamagic can give them 2 Quickened spells per day (or two boosted spells like Wizards). Sure, Wizards can now do two Instant Metamagicks per day, but they still have to prepare the vast majority of their metamagic spells ahead of time which means that for most of their metamagic spells, they have to guess (unless they have open spells slots and the time to prep a spell as needed). Sorcerers do not have to guess.

That's a difference these two classes already have, so it doesn't really come into play here. Wizards gain more with Instant Metamagic, because it allows them to use all their metamagic (including Quicken, which they can also use traditionally) spontaneously up to twice per day, instead a Sorcerer 'only' gains the ability to use Quicken (still costs the feat, which is otherwise useless, unless more feats or abilities are used in addition) twice per day or save on the extra casting time.

Improved Metamagic is better for Sorcerers, obviously, since they use metamagic more often, but it's also very good for Wizards, since it makes it easier for them to prepare metamagicked spells, and it enhances the powerful Metamagic Effect ability. But Improved Metamagic is only gained at the 10th level, while Metamagic Effect is already usable a long time before.

4) Sorcerers can cast a lot more spells per day than Wizards and with the losing of a Prohibited School, this really is not a good choice for Specialized Wizards. Hence, this means that Sorcerers gain an exponential increase in the number of different types of spells they can cast. Need Widened Fireball? Check. Need Empowered Fireball? Check. Need Silent Fireball? Check.

The additional prohibited school is much less of an issue for a Wizard, because you can learn all spells you need from that school before going into the PrC, and you keep them and the ability to use them. Wizards are MUCH better there than Sorcerers, who only have very few spells known at that point, and none of levels they cannot cast yet (Wizards can already learn those, they just cannot cast them).

Wizards are not only limited to what spells they prepared ahead of time with metamagic, but every spell they prepare for one specific metamagic effects is one less higher level spell slot they have for something else they would normally do. So if they guess wrong, they have lost a precious higher level spell slot. Sorcerers have more higher level spell slots to burn (especially at even levels).

Again, that's the base classes not the PrC; these are advantages and disadvantages they already have and which they do gain or lose something else to compensate... like the number of spells known, which greatly increases the possible applications for metamagic in any number of potential situations.

Sorcerers are the metamagic kings (shy of Warmages and such). Any PrC that gives them metamagic advantages by definition would have to have a lot of other significant advantages for Wizards to knock them off that pedestal.

I never said, that it would make Wizards better at using metamagic than Sorcerers.
I said, that the Incantatrix offers more to Wizards than it does to Sorcerers.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Plane Sailing]

So, you think that a Ring of Wizardry should double the number of Cleric spells of a given level per day as well?

Well, if clerics used arcane spells then sure. But they don't, so I'm not sure about the point of your question here. (actually I am sure, but I think it is irrelevant).

I do think that clerics and druids should be able to use metamagic rods to quicken or maximise or whatever both their normal spells and their spontaneously cast heals/SNA, which is somewhat more relevant.

Regarding the metamagic rods, it seems that their main effect is to sorta grant a 'sudden metamagic' effect, rather than a metamagic feat - after all, the rods allow a metamagic effect to be applied a limited number of times a day without raising spell level. Sounds like sudden metamagic, eh?

Hence my question about whether sudden metamagic feats restrict spontaneous casters, and apparently they don't.

So metamagic rods shouldn't either.

Cheers

 

[Hypersmurf]

Regarding the metamagic rods, it seems that their main effect is to sorta grant a 'sudden metamagic' effect, rather than a metamagic feat - after all, the rods allow a metamagic effect to be applied a limited number of times a day without raising spell level. Sounds like sudden metamagic, eh?

I think it makes perfect sense for a sorcerer applying a metamagic effect at casting time to a spell not prepared with that metamagic feat to suffer an increased casting time. Whether he's using a rod to do it or not.

If we allow a wizard to use a rod to apply a metamagic effect at casting time to a spell not prepared with that metamagic feat, however, he should suffer the same increased casting time.

"But because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell."

If the sorcerer using the rod needs more time to apply the feat, we know that applying a metamagic feat on the spot using a rod requires as much time as applying a metamagic feat on the spot normally.

So if a wizard applies a metamagic feat on the spot using a rod, it makes no sense that he should not require more time.

Since the description implies that a wizard using the rod does not require more time, the only logical conclusion I can see is that the wizard using the rod does not apply the feat on the spot to a spell not prepared in a metamagic form in advance.

Thus, I reject the FAQ answer, and conclude that the wizard uses the rod when preparing spells, just as he would if he had the feat.

-Hyp.