D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[Maxperson]

You do know 20% is insanely high.

Are you going to sit here with a straight face and say 20% is insanely high when you claimed it was 90%?! Give me a break.

I went with 20% based on your number.

We had a topic about the percentage of people who are adventurers and the highest answer was 2%. The common answers ranged from. 0.05% to 0.1%.

If 1/5th of half elves became adventurers, you'd need 200 to 1000 times more halflings to outnumber them as adventurers.

Nah. I expect that there are 1-2 adventurers at any given time that come out any particular village of Halflings, so around 2%. We can drop halflings, but then we have to drop half-elves by just the same amount. So if you want haflings to be .5%, half-elves drop to 5%, etc.

I expect halflings outnumber half-elves by several thousand to 1, so if half-elves are just 10x more likely to be adventurers, halflings will dwarf their numbers.

 

[Maxperson]

Sure, Halaster does.

Do the goblins, oozes, undead, monstrosities, constructs, Kobolds, Yuan-Ti, Drow, Duergar... I mean I could go on. There is an entire city called Skullport that is full of pirates in Undermountain, and that is just level 3 of a 16 level structure. None of them ever break into the surface?

No. Undermountain understands that it's continued existence is dependent on NOT angering Waterdeep.

And you can say that the Cult of the Dragon isn't from "down the block" but the entire point of cults is that they infiltrate normal society.

What society? Where the main population is? Or out in the boonies in a small halfling village where you'd have to be a halfling to be successful? Think about it.

You are comparing halflings to an animal. Not a group of people, an animal. Because that is how much impact they are having on society. And you had to go there, because you recognize that protecting the countries borders means protecting all the people within those borders. So you had to compare halflings to animals instead of people.

Um, no. Again, you don't get to dictate to me what my intent is. I in fact, and it is a fact, did not compare halflings to prairie dogs because of how much impact halflings have on society

The heater just kicked on in my house. Are the dogs not benefitting from the warmth of the heater to protect them form the cold just because we bought the heater for ourselves? That doesn't make any logical sense.

You aren't warming it for the dogs.

IT isn't just humans though, that is the problem. Humans, elves, Dwarves, Tieflings, Gnomes, Goliaths, Minotaurs (in certain settings), Orcs. Every race must be vigilant against their own destruction. If a force is sweeping across the land threatening all of them, they react to that threat.

They have their own racial reasons for needing it, though. Halflings have a different racial make-up and lore such that they don't require the same things.

What makes you think they are an idiot? "Lord of the Dead tries to kill all of the living and rule over a dead world" is pretty common as far as plots for Super Powerful Necromancers go.

Necromancer: "Go forth and destroy the living. Don't group up and attack major cities and towns, though. You might succeed if you did that. Rather, spread out and cover lots of empty space where you aren't likely actually find people, and so you're so spread out that if you do find any, they will destroy you. Who knows, you might get lucky and get destroyed by some halfling village with their bows and axes."

You do realize that most medieval areas and by extension most DnD settings have villages within a day of each other, right?

The empty space is still there. The above just makes it easier for halflings to be out of the way.

You aren't getting thousands of miles of empty plains like what you have in the US, you are dealing with a very contained ecosystem that can be traversed in a week or two by foot.

Yes you are getting thousands of miles of emptiness. The land area doesn't shrink to fit population size and much small populations combined with being close together only means MORE open space for halfling villages to be in, not less.

See, this is the point though.

That insane, hyper childlike demeanor? That "A dragon with an orb that can answer any question? I want to ask it why the sun rises in the East, or why flies are called flies since other creatures can fly" style of character. That defines kender. Children with no concept of how the world works, who are completely divorced from reality. They are like cartoon characters, barely any concept of right and wrong, no concept of danger, and completely divorced from the struggles other people can and do face.

It's not insane. Everyone gets questions answered and the halflings don't need to ask deep questions.

 

[Minigiant]

Are you going to sit here with a straight face and say 20% is insanely high when you claimed it was 90%?! Give me a break.

I went with 20% based on your number.

I still believe in my high 90% number. Half elves just don't live normal lives.

Nah. I expect that there are 1-2 adventurers at any given time that come out any particular village of Halflings, so around 2%. We can drop halflings, but then we have to drop half-elves by just the same amount. So if you want haflings to be .5%, half-elves drop to 5%, etc.

I expect halflings outnumber half-elves by several thousand to 1, so if half-elves are just 10x more likely to be adventurers, halflings will dwarf their numbers.

Well that's the confusion.
It's hard to think halflings outnumber half elves, half orcs, and tieflings that much if some many are living in the 100 person villages.

In Waterdeep, halflings, half elves, half orcs, and gnomes have similar populations. The lore of the halfling don't really match the idea of them being extremely populous with their level of activity.

 

[Maxperson]

I still believe in my high 90% number. Half elves just don't live normal lives.


Well that's the confusion.
It's hard to think halflings outnumber half elves, half orcs, and tieflings that much if some many are living in the 100 person villages.

In Waterdeep, halflings, half elves, half orcs, and gnomes have similar populations. The lore of the halfling don't really match the idea of them being extremely populous with their level of activity.

Then since it's a fact that they are in the top 4 adventuring races, they must have a 99% rate of producing adventurers.

 

[tetrasodium]

7th is not in the top 4

-source
Halflings are beat out by dragonborn & barely edging out over aasimar/gensai/half orc. If the volos & eberron races were free like halfling we could expect halfling to rank even lower.

 

[Scribe]

Wonder if the class numbers are any different after a few years.

 

[Mecheon]

Wonder if the class numbers are any different after a few years.

Later stuff doesn't go as deep into that but has shown dragonborn overtaking dwarves, so I'd imagine so

 

[Maxperson]

Nothing like showing a chart that doesn't matter. Unless the numbers can be proven to be because of the lore and not the mechanics, they're irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[Chaosmancer]

No. Undermountain understands that it's continued existence is dependent on NOT angering Waterdeep.

Seriously? You want to claim that all the monsters in Undermountain understand that attacking Waterdeep is bad for them? I love how the Kobolds, Oozes, Goblins, Constructs, Drow, Duergar ect ect all have an agreement to never attack the surface for their common good.

What society? Where the main population is? Or out in the boonies in a small halfling village where you'd have to be a halfling to be successful? Think about it.

So, just to be clear about your claims.

You claimed that the halflings would be in land already cleared of monsters by the other races. In a part of the kingdom that is not on the frontier. Now there are threats that could be part of normal society. Things that could be in the small towns near the halflings. But the halflings are in the boonies, but not near the frontier, so they can't be threatened by things in the towns, or by things on the frontiers.

Centrally located away from the center? How do you picture this working?

Um, no. Again, you don't get to dictate to me what my intent is. I in fact, and it is a fact, did not compare halflings to prairie dogs because of how much impact halflings have on society

But instead of claiming them as any sort of people, you defaulted to an animal. The only explanation I can think of is that you wanted them so far removed from any interaction with the society of the area, that you had to go to an animal, because any people would be considered part of the country being protected.

You aren't warming it for the dogs.

I'm warming it for everyone. Myself, my family, the dogs, the cat, the plants. And, even if I was warming it only for myself... I am still warming everyone else. We all live in the house. I don't get exclusive warmth for warming the house only for myself.

They have their own racial reasons for needing it, though. Halflings have a different racial make-up and lore such that they don't require the same things.

They don't require a self-preservation instinct? A worry about things killing them?

There is no "racial reasons" for wanting to protect your home and family. People want to protect their homes and family. Even the emotionless Lizardfolk have that instinct. And halflings... well, they have the emotional capability, but every time we put a threat up, you tell us how they won't ever actually be under threat.

They live too far away. They are too well hidden. They have nothing of value. They are too lucky. They are protected by the other races.

Every threat you have dismissed.

Necromancer: "Go forth and destroy the living. Don't group up and attack major cities and towns, though. You might succeed if you did that. Rather, spread out and cover lots of empty space where you aren't likely actually find people, and so you're so spread out that if you do find any, they will destroy you. Who knows, you might get lucky and get destroyed by some halfling village with their bows and axes."

The empty space is still there. The above just makes it easier for halflings to be out of the way.

Yes you are getting thousands of miles of emptiness. The land area doesn't shrink to fit population size and much small populations combined with being close together only means MORE open space for halfling villages to be in, not less.

"Go forth and destroy the living, cover the land."

Every village, town and city adds more dead to wander the land. But somehow they are never going to go inbetween towns and cities?

Also, are you looney? Look at a map of any campaign setting. A thousand miles is bigger than just about any three or four kingdoms combined. Cormyr, the country you mentioned in Faerun, is about 500 miles at the largest. You want multiple thousands of miles of empty land?

Even Greyhawk, which is massive, even the biggest kingdoms are 800 miles across. Which is, by the way, the size of France, one of the largest countries in Europe.

If you want a kingdom to have thousands of miles of empty space, on top of villages, farms and cities, you have created what is usually referred to as a Massive Empire.

It's not insane. Everyone gets questions answered and the halflings don't need to ask deep questions.

They are going to go and fight a dragon to ask an object why flies are called flies. It is... nonsensical. It is randomness. They don't need to ask deep questions? That is more of a joke question. I'm not saying they need to ask what the meaning of life is, but you presented a motivation for leaving their shop, their home, and risking life and limb for a childish question that the DM isn't going to have a serious answer for.

Now, stepping back a bit because you've said it is a question you yourself have. I admit, I have an interest in the origin of words. I'm sure that I could do some google searching and it would be interesting, but you have to consider it in context.

"We are going to slay a dragon and recover a powerful artifact that can answer any question. I plan on asking of the location of my lost sister."
"I am going to ask where the sacred journal of a famed alchemist is buried."
"I am going to ask how to heal the sickness infecting my home."
"I am going to ask why flies are called flies."

That is jarring. It is a joke.

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Also, I notice you completely skipped and ignored all of my writing and math about the relative populations of halflings and half elves. Wondered how you would respond to that. Silence seems about right.

 

[tetrasodium]

Seriously? You want to claim that all the monsters in Undermountain understand that attacking Waterdeep is bad for them? I love how the Kobolds, Oozes, Goblins, Constructs, Drow, Duergar ect ect all have an agreement to never attack the surface for their common good.



So, just to be clear about your claims.

You claimed that the halflings would be in land already cleared of monsters by the other races. In a part of the kingdom that is not on the frontier. Now there are threats that could be part of normal society. Things that could be in the small towns near the halflings. But the halflings are in the boonies, but not near the frontier, so they can't be threatened by things in the towns, or by things on the frontiers.

Centrally located away from the center? How do you picture this working?



But instead of claiming them as any sort of people, you defaulted to an animal. The only explanation I can think of is that you wanted them so far removed from any interaction with the society of the area, that you had to go to an animal, because any people would be considered part of the country being protected.



I'm warming it for everyone. Myself, my family, the dogs, the cat, the plants. And, even if I was warming it only for myself... I am still warming everyone else. We all live in the house. I don't get exclusive warmth for warming the house only for myself.



They don't require a self-preservation instinct? A worry about things killing them?

There is no "racial reasons" for wanting to protect your home and family. People want to protect their homes and family. Even the emotionless Lizardfolk have that instinct. And halflings... well, they have the emotional capability, but every time we put a threat up, you tell us how they won't ever actually be under threat.

They live too far away. They are too well hidden. They have nothing of value. They are too lucky. They are protected by the other races.

Every threat you have dismissed.



"Go forth and destroy the living, cover the land."

Every village, town and city adds more dead to wander the land. But somehow they are never going to go inbetween towns and cities?

Also, are you looney? Look at a map of any campaign setting. A thousand miles is bigger than just about any three or four kingdoms combined. Cormyr, the country you mentioned in Faerun, is about 500 miles at the largest. You want multiple thousands of miles of empty land?

Even Greyhawk, which is massive, even the biggest kingdoms are 800 miles across. Which is, by the way, the size of France, one of the largest countries in Europe.

If you want a kingdom to have thousands of miles of empty space, on top of villages, farms and cities, you have created what is usually referred to as a Massive Empire.


View attachment 132711



They are going to go and fight a dragon to ask an object why flies are called flies. It is... nonsensical. It is randomness. They don't need to ask deep questions? That is more of a joke question. I'm not saying they need to ask what the meaning of life is, but you presented a motivation for leaving their shop, their home, and risking life and limb for a childish question that the DM isn't going to have a serious answer for.

Now, stepping back a bit because you've said it is a question you yourself have. I admit, I have an interest in the origin of words. I'm sure that I could do some google searching and it would be interesting, but you have to consider it in context.

"We are going to slay a dragon and recover a powerful artifact that can answer any question. I plan on asking of the location of my lost sister."
"I am going to ask where the sacred journal of a famed alchemist is buried."
"I am going to ask how to heal the sickness infecting my home."
"I am going to ask why flies are called flies."

That is jarring. It is a joke.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, I notice you completely skipped and ignored all of my writing and math about the relative populations of halflings and half elves. Wondered how you would respond to that. Silence seems about right.

That much empty space would be like every continent plus the oceans of eberron & maybe some extra. athas (darksun) would comfortably fit with space left over inside a stray dot on a map so large.

Literally the only thing I can think of that throws around those kinds of numbers like that is wuxia novels where its assumed the reader will ignore the number and mentally picture a vague nonspecific buf large distance that may or may not be a guess to fill in for the map saying here be dragons for the unknown

Edit: new York city to Miami is like 1200 miles for comparison