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D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

It's pretty clear from the context, though, that the "major" races correspond to the 4 PHB common races, and "minor" races correspond to all the rest.
I agree about which population of races we're talking about. But we've already seen a definition of "Major" that had very little to do with how many of that race exist in the setting.

As far as I've seen, 'major' and 'minor' are only terms we're using in this thread, not concepts in the book. And these definitions seem to be causing a lot of the heartburn over the lore.

"One of the 'major' races doesn't seem to accomplish much in the setting" vs. "One of the most populous races in the setting doesn't seem to accomplish much"... One of those statements holds more controversy.

Or consider a change to one recent refrain.

"That's how a less populous race acts"..it doesn't even make sense.

Subbing in 'major' and 'minor' into these evaluations is a problem the users of these terms made for themselves.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I agree about which population of races we're talking about. But we've already seen a definition of "Major" that had very little to do with how many of that race exist in the setting.

As far as I've seen, 'major' and 'minor' are only terms we're using in this thread, not concepts in the book. And these definitions seem to be causing a lot of the heartburn over the lore.

"One of the 'major' races doesn't seem to accomplish much in the setting" vs. "One of the most populous races in the setting doesn't seem to accomplish much"... One of those statements holds more controversy.

Or consider a change to one recent refrain.

"That's how a less populous race acts"..it doesn't even make sense.

Subbing in 'major' and 'minor' into these evaluations is a problem the users of these terms made for themselves.
Well, "That's how a less populous race acts." and "That's how a minor race acts." make equal sense to me. As in not any. :p

Races act like they are made to act, and that has nothing to do with "common" and "uncommon," or "major" and "minor."

I do agree that major and minor are more indicators of influence, where common and uncommon are indicators of how often you see them. Early on common and uncommon got used a bit, but then major and minor started being conflated with common and uncommon, so I just took it in stride.
 

I doubt ordinary citizens could allow themself the luxury of turism when they can be attacked by bandits, wolves or other beasts from the dark forests.

Who knows? Maybe the next time a mangaka create a web-novel about a woman from a postapocalypse world who is killed by zombies and her soul is reincarnated into a cute halfling girl, and the plot with a touch of comedy (sailor uniform, cosplay, magical girl?) becomes a smash-hit and lot of players want to created PCs based in that web-novel.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
99% of which doesn't come from down the block. The land is generally pretty clear until you get to the frontier areas.

Right the Cult of the Dragon, the Cult of Elemental Evil, the Devil Cult responsible for Descent into Avernus, raids from the Underdark which include Drow and Mindflayers which come from underneath. All of those are only Frontier threats... wasn't the Flaming Fist Mercenary guild from Elemental Evil in the center of the City? And the Dexcent into Avernus Cult was... middle of the city. And Undermountain for Mad Mage is.... underneath the city.

And aren't sewer systems in cities generally monster-filled?

But yes, most threats to most people are coming only from the frontiers, right.

(And no, I don't care that halfling shires don't have sewer systems. The point was that there are monsters and forces that attack people that aren't coming from the wilds outside of the frontiers)

No it doesn't. I suppose you are talking about this portion which doesn't say what you think it does.

"And by protecting their own lands, they protect us as well."

All that means is that the humans have cleared out the land and keep it that way, and the Halflings are taking advantage. True protection would be if the humans sent armed forces to defend the villages, which they don't.

So wait,you want to claim that 99% of all threats come from frontiers. And then claim that humans deal with all the frontier threats. And that doesn't mean that they protect the halflings, because they didn't send a force of soldiers into the halfling village?

I'm curious, do you think the US Navy protects Las Vegas? By their actions, do you think they protect the people of Las Vegas? Because by your logic you just presented, the US Navy is not protecting any place in the US that is not directly on the coast. And I'm pretty sure the Naval Officers would get real upset if you told them that they are not protecting over 90% of the country.

IF the humans are dealing with threats at the borders and within the borders, and the halflings are taking advantage of that, then the halflings are being protected by the humans. It is that simple. That is how military protection works.

Yep. And the border regions don't have halfling villages. And those threats go after the humans, elves, etc.

Right, no one ever targets halflings. For any reason.

And they aren't mary sues?

No. That's isn't how HUMANS would react to a threat like that. Halflings are not human, so basing how you think they would act on human thought processes is pretty doomed.

So it is somehow logical for a halfling to look at any potentially deadly situation, shrug, and say it will work itself out. Again, you are describing an entire race of people being disconnected from reality.

They are untouchable, and they know it, so they don't react to threats. You are hiding behind them not being human, and ignoring that the majority of their description... is human. Nothing outside of this bizzare disconnect from the world makes them non-human.

Dang. Logic like this suddenly makes complete sense how Kenders came from halflings. Just disconnect them from the world that everyone else lives in.

You realize that they're directed by intelligent undead and/or Necromancers who aren't going to have them walk through the middle of nowhere just in case something might be there, right?

I'm sorry, why are you assuming that they are being directed and aren't just being sent out to kill and destroy?

And the halflings weren't in the middle of nowhere. They were in the kingdom. If the dead are taking over the kingdom, they would be taking over where the halflings live too.

Except that you have decided that the dead can't find the halflings. Because halflings must be safe from threats.

D&D has no such race.

You would think but that is how you are describing Halflings. Completely unconcerned with anything going on outside of their shires, because they are untouchable.

First, I will continue to call you out whenever you Strawman me. Second, you don't get to declare what my intent is. And it isn't what you are twisting my arguments to be.

No it doesn't.

That has been proven to be false by both me and the lore...................repeatedly. Why do you continue to engage this Strawman?

I will tell you your intent when it is this blatantly obvious. At every turn you have declared that halflings would be safe. They live too far away, they are too lucky, they are too well hidden, they live in the borders of human areas, away from the dangers of the frontier, non-frontier threats attack everyone except halflings.

Your one concession is that once every 60 to a 100 years, a stray ogre that is easily driven off stumbles upon their paradise.

Well, pretty much every other sentient in the world is dealing with threats once every 3 to 5 years. Maybe more often. They encounter threats to their existence on the regular, and fight to overcome those threats. Halflings.. don't. None of that touches them, according to you. They exist in this idyllic paradise where none of the threats of the world ever reach them. Except for the occassional bout of excitement from a minor, easily dispatched threat that was never serious enough to cause them any worry.

Entire countries can be swallowed by the Undead around them. Halflings will be safe. Who would bother attacking them?
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Party talking to a Halfling in a city: We're about to go plunder a dragon horde. It's rumored that it contains an artifact that will answer any question.
Halfling: Ooooooh! That sounds interesting. I'd love to ask it some things. I've always wondered why the sun rises in the East.
Party: You can come with us, but it will be dangerous and we will likely have to kill the dragon.
Halfling: Okay! As long as I can ask the artifact why out of all the creatures on the planet that can fly, Fly got the name. I've always wondered that.
Party: (laughs) Then welcome to the group.

Curiosity and wanderlust can explain almost anything. And then of course there are the manyHalfling adventurers that don't conform to the racial lore, per RAW.

Sure, but a wandering salesperson fits that bill. Lots of wandering outcast things to do that aren't adventurer.

That doesn't mean that they all become adventurers, or even nearly all, or even 20%. And again, there are very few half-elves.

And again, there are LOTS of occupations that don't involve adventuring that also involve wandering and being on the outskirts of society.

What? I don't think that and it certainly isn't true.

Normal people don't tour in a medieval society. Touring is a modern luxury.

Nope. All 3 are normal kids to the normal Tiefling mother and father. One of them, bitter about the treatment he gets, will grow up and make a pact with Mickey Mouse, becoming a Warlock.

Oh my god.

This is why you are making no sense to me. You really are describing Halflings as Kender. You are advocating for Kender.


Also, I love how "halflings have curiosity and wander lust to go and become adventurers" leads to many of them becoming adventurers. But "Many half-elves leave and wander" leads to them becoming traveling salesmen, because just being curious and wandering the world isn't enough to be an adventurer
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Right the Cult of the Dragon, the Cult of Elemental Evil, the Devil Cult responsible for Descent into Avernus, raids from the Underdark which include Drow and Mindflayers which come from underneath. All of those are only Frontier threats... wasn't the Flaming Fist Mercenary guild from Elemental Evil in the center of the City? And the Dexcent into Avernus Cult was... middle of the city. And Undermountain for Mad Mage is.... underneath the city.
Other than the Flaming Fists, the rest of those are not from down the block. And Halaster minds his own business. Undermountain doesn't attack Waterdeep.
And aren't sewer systems in cities generally monster-filled?
Not generally, no. Occasionally a DM will put something in it other than rats.
I'm curious, do you think the US Navy protects Las Vegas? By their actions, do you think they protect the people of Las Vegas? Because by your logic you just presented, the US Navy is not protecting any place in the US that is not directly on the coast. And I'm pretty sure the Naval Officers would get real upset if you told them that they are not protecting over 90% of the country.
Does the American armed forces protect Americans? Yes. Do they protect the prairie dogs? No.
IF the humans are dealing with threats at the borders and within the borders, and the halflings are taking advantage of that, then the halflings are being protected by the humans. It is that simple. That is how military protection works.
Nope. If I buy you a wall, the wall is for you. Coincidental "protection" is not protection
Right, no one ever targets halflings. For any reason.
(YAWN)
So it is somehow logical for a halfling to look at any potentially deadly situation, shrug, and say it will work itself out. Again, you are describing an entire race of people being disconnected from reality.
Whose reality? Different races have different outlooks. It's a mistake for you to apply human mental states and views to halflings.
I'm sorry, why are you assuming that they are being directed and aren't just being sent out to kill and destroy?
Why are you assuming the person sending them is an idiot?
And the halflings weren't in the middle of nowhere. They were in the kingdom. If the dead are taking over the kingdom, they would be taking over where the halflings live too.
You do realize that most of a country is just wide open empty space, right? The living live in clusters that don't take up much area. The dead aren't going to be sent walking through the hugs tracts of emptiness. That's just dumb.
Except that you have decided that the dead can't find the halflings. Because halflings must be safe from threats.
Nope. Dwarves, elves, and other small communities hidden in out of the way places will be safe as well. I don't assume that the person directing/sending the undead are morons.
I will tell you your intent when it is this blatantly obvious.
And you wonder why your success rate is near 0%
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Oh my god.

This is why you are making no sense to me. You really are describing Halflings as Kender. You are advocating for Kender.
There was no kender there. But if you don't understand halflings, why would you understand kender.
Also, I love how "halflings have curiosity and wander lust to go and become adventurers" leads to many of them becoming adventurers. But "Many half-elves leave and wander" leads to them becoming traveling salesmen, because just being curious and wandering the world isn't enough to be an adventurer
Mr. Strawman strikes again!! I said many half-elves become adventurers. Many of almost none(low populations) doesn't equate to a lot of adventurers. I'd be willing to grant the obscenely high rate of 20% to half-elves.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I'd be willing to grant the obscenely high rate of 20% to half-elves

You do know 20% is insanely high.

We had a topic about the percentage of people who are adventurers and the highest answer was 2%. The common answers ranged from. 0.05% to 0.1%.

If 1/5th of half elves became adventurers, you'd need 200 to 1000 times more halflings to outnumber them as adventurers.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
.the idea being put forth that halflings are exempt from human motivations due to not being human is an abject failure that shows a profound grasping at straws to ignore & dismiss the problems. A desire to eat good food, live a quite life, & hang out with friends/family is not a collection of nonhuman motivations to the point that nearly every mammal can check those boxes. It's so human that it doesn't even edge into rubber forehead alien territory.

Elves live for a thousand years or so & as a result have a culture that generally tries to avoid forming too many strong personal bonds with short lived races for the same reason any number of poems about deceased pets & dog heaven will make many tear up. Those efforts to avoid people with lifespans that will result in an elf outliving someone's great great great grandkids results in elf culture having understandable but unusual forms that don't map well to our culture. We as players & gms can put ourselves in the mindset of an elf & attempt to infer the answers to question like "how would an elf react to this"

While there are some other PC races like warforged shifters & changelings that almost cross the line of rubber forehead alien, really only the Lizardfolk actually set foot into starfish alien territory & they do it with a very small step compared to things like the daelkyr & the daelkyr creations (mind flayers/beholders/dogrim/dolgaunt/dolgrue/etc) or things like aboleths.
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Those lizardfolk still have one foot tentatively placed in rubber forehead alien motivations but by making their inhuman reptilebrain in the driver's seat front and center as the defining thing about them as a people they comfortably put at least a few toes into the realm of starfish alien. "They aren't human" almost somewhat applies to a degree with darksun cannibal raider halflings
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Other than the Flaming Fists, the rest of those are not from down the block. And Halaster minds his own business. Undermountain doesn't attack Waterdeep.

Sure, Halaster does.

Do the goblins, oozes, undead, monstrosities, constructs, Kobolds, Yuan-Ti, Drow, Duergar... I mean I could go on. There is an entire city called Skullport that is full of pirates in Undermountain, and that is just level 3 of a 16 level structure. None of them ever break into the surface?

And you can say that the Cult of the Dragon isn't from "down the block" but the entire point of cults is that they infiltrate normal society.

Not generally, no. Occasionally a DM will put something in it other than rats.

That is so far from the norm that I had to read it twice. Sewers in DnD are always full of something more dangerous than rats.

Does the American armed forces protect Americans? Yes. Do they protect the prairie dogs? No.

This highlights the very problem I am trying to bring your attention to.

You are comparing halflings to an animal. Not a group of people, an animal. Because that is how much impact they are having on society. And you had to go there, because you recognize that protecting the countries borders means protecting all the people within those borders. So you had to compare halflings to animals instead of people.


Nope. If I buy you a wall, the wall is for you. Coincidental "protection" is not protection

You are so wrong I can't even think of a proper way to say it.

The heater just kicked on in my house. Are the dogs not benefitting from the warmth of the heater to protect them form the cold just because we bought the heater for ourselves? That doesn't make any logical sense.

Whose reality? Different races have different outlooks. It's a mistake for you to apply human mental states and views to halflings.

IT isn't just humans though, that is the problem. Humans, elves, Dwarves, Tieflings, Gnomes, Goliaths, Minotaurs (in certain settings), Orcs. Every race must be vigilant against their own destruction. If a force is sweeping across the land threatening all of them, they react to that threat.

Except halflings don't.

Why are you assuming the person sending them is an idiot?

What makes you think they are an idiot? "Lord of the Dead tries to kill all of the living and rule over a dead world" is pretty common as far as plots for Super Powerful Necromancers go.

You do realize that most of a country is just wide open empty space, right? The living live in clusters that don't take up much area. The dead aren't going to be sent walking through the hugs tracts of emptiness. That's just dumb.

You do realize that most medieval areas and by extension most DnD settings have villages within a day of each other, right?

You aren't getting thousands of miles of empty plains like what you have in the US, you are dealing with a very contained ecosystem that can be traversed in a week or two by foot.

Nope. Dwarves, elves, and other small communities hidden in out of the way places will be safe as well. I don't assume that the person directing/sending the undead are morons.

Oh, so the guy trying to destroy all life in the kingdom is just going to miss all of the small communities. Also, the elves and Dwarves are running kingdoms, kingdoms that are going to see this as a potential threat that they need to figure out a way to deal with.

Maybe it will be a classic "close their borders" response, but they are certainly paying attention and reacting.

But I guess this guy is just concerned with destroying cities and is going to be ignoring any community that is small enough. Because that accomplishes his goal of killing all life in the kingdom.


There was no kender there. But if you don't understand halflings, why would you understand kender.

See, this is the point though.

That insane, hyper childlike demeanor? That "A dragon with an orb that can answer any question? I want to ask it why the sun rises in the East, or why flies are called flies since other creatures can fly" style of character. That defines kender. Children with no concept of how the world works, who are completely divorced from reality. They are like cartoon characters, barely any concept of right and wrong, no concept of danger, and completely divorced from the struggles other people can and do face.

If that is your view of Halflings, no wonder they make no sense. You are playing them the same way I would a fey, or an insane person. Blue-Orange Morality and all.

Mr. Strawman strikes again!! I said many half-elves become adventurers. Many of almost none(low populations) doesn't equate to a lot of adventurers. I'd be willing to grant the obscenely high rate of 20% to half-elves.

See, this is the problem though. I did some digging, and yes this is setting specific, but FR has some baseline numbers and I can grab my old Greyhawk atlas to do some comparatives.

According to a post I found "For Forgotten Realms? Fortunately, you don't have to do any speculation here: The 3.5e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting includes these kinds of demographics, which is great. The Sword Coast North (not including the city of Waterdeep) has 660,960 people (Humans 65%, Dwarves 10%, Orcs 8%, Half-Orcs 5%, Elves 4%, Halflings 4%, Gnomes 2%, Half-Elves 1%). It's safe to assume the majority of the Dwarves are Shield Dwarves and the majority of the Elves are Moon Elves."

According to the Wiki (which references the same book for this number) Waterdeep has a stupidly high population of 1,347,680, with 5% half elves and 5% halflings.


So, breaking down those numbers. 1% of 660960 is 6609 (rounded down) and 5% of 1347680 is 67,384

That is 73,993 half elves in the Northern Sword Coast and Waterdeep. At 20% of them being adventurers that is 14,798 half elf adventurers.

For halflings 5% is the same 67,384 and their 4% is 26,438 giving them a total of 93,822 halfings in the same region.

To just barely surpass the number of Half Elf adventurers, using your 20% number, you would need 16% of all halflings to be adventurers. That gets them 15,011 barely few hundred more.

To get a truly significant amount more, say half again? You would need 24% of all halflings to be adventurers.


Or, to put it more succinctly, the populations of half-elves are so close to that of halflings, that for them to be less common as adventurers by a significant margin, they'd have to be quite a bit less likely to adventure than halflings.

Heck, gnomes are really close to population numbers as well, getting 2% and 3% to the halfings 4% and 5%


I went ahead and googled instead of doing the hard work myself. Found this on Canonfire

"populations of the kingdoms of the Flanaess listed in the LGG and you get 27,921,630.
1,429,316 are halflings, roughly 5.1% of the total population.
1,391,833 are elves, roughly 4.9% of the total population.
680,934 are dwarves, roughly 2.4%
557,024 are gnomes, roughly 1.9% of the total population.
38,046 are half-elves, roughly 1.2% of the population."

So, in Greyhawk you might have a better argument.

20% of 38046 is 7,609 for half elf adventurers, meaning that to match that Halflings would need to have 0.5% percent. So that works out...

Except as @Minigiant points out, in this example there are 1.5 million halflings in the region, and only about 40K half-elves. Halflings out number every race except humans in this setting. Halflings outnumber Half-elves in this example over 37 times.

So, again, if so many of other races become adventurers, for halflings to outnumber them significantly, one of two things need to happen.

1) Halflings are far more likely to be adventurers
2) Halflings populations outnumber these other races by a wide margin.



Which, just because I found it amusing. Let us assume that half of all halflings in Flanaess live in shires. That is 714,658. To have shires of 100 people and no more (which remember it is supposed to be less than 100) you would need 7,147 shires in the setting.

Looking at the map here Regions of Greyhawk there are about 56 regions in all of Greyhawk.

That means that there would have to be, approximately, 128 shires per region. Which is more than the number of cities and villages in some of those regions.
 

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