Why do we really need HP to represent things other than physical injuries?

By this logic, does a high level fighter have more neurons, more resilient neurons, or better brain signal dampening?
Very good questions!

It clearly takes more psychic crush attacks to kill him
No - psychic crush is a hp-independent % chance of death. Hp only come into play once psionic point loss is being inflicted on a character with no points left.

As I posted, the DMG itself says that this is "physical damage" - how it is that a fighter can endure more physical damage to the brain than an MU I can't explain!

In my view, this is one part of the AD&D rules that - a bit like AoEs and falling damage - requires squinting to be brought under a general "hp as physical damage" approach.
 

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Very good questions!

No - psychic crush is a hp-independent % chance of death. Hp only come into play once psionic point loss is being inflicted on a character with no points left.

As I posted, the DMG itself says that this is "physical damage" - how it is that a fighter can endure more physical damage to the brain than an MU I can't explain!

In my view, this is one part of the AD&D rules that - a bit like AoEs and falling damage - requires squinting to be brought under a general "hp as physical damage" approach.

I was referring to the 2e version of Psychic Crush from my own example. That one does inflict hp damage, even against non-psychics.

I'm strongly of the notion that "hp as purely physical damage" requires throwing any semblance to realism out the window. Hp as a blend of physical and meta elements works far better for modeling typical (non-anime) fantasy in my experience.

In other words, I could describe every point of hp damage as purely physical, but I'm severely limiting myself if I do so. If I use a "meta and/or physical" approach, I can cater to a lot more concepts.

For example, imagine that I have a deft swashbuckler and a brawny barbarian in the party. The swashbuckler might enjoy the game more if I tend to describe the skillful way in which he turns his enemies' attacks aside at the last second, or has seemingly random chance intervene to save his like. The barbarian might instead prefer for me to describe the brutal blows he absorbs, which would surely fell any lesser man. Both can work off of the same hp system in the same game.

If I'm flexible in my interpretation of hp, I can do this. If I'm not, then I can't. That's why I think the base system should remain as it always has (as Gary Gygax described hp in 1e). They can always add modules to make hp meat, but if they start with hp as purely physical they'll be discarding a number of intriguing ideas out of hand. There's no reason for that. Especially if they intend to keep with tradition.
 

I was referring to the 2e version of Psychic Crush from my own example. That one does inflict hp damage, even against non-psychics.
Ah, I misunderstood the reference.

I'm strongly of the notion that "hp as purely physical damage" requires throwing any semblance to realism out the window.
I still don't agree with this. I think the "damage divisor" can work, in a rough and ready way, and while there will be rough places - falling the most notorious - it can muddle through.

I think this is problem the single most common way in which D&D hp have been understood. Gygax himself, despite the long essay in his DMG on "meta elements", still refers to hp as physical damage in the footnote to the psionic attack charts. And it is a very tempting interpretation, lurking in the very phrase "hit points".

Hp as a blend of physical and meta elements works far better for modeling typical (non-anime) fantasy in my experience.
I agree.

If I use a "meta and/or physical" approach, I can cater to a lot more concepts.

For example, imagine that I have a deft swashbuckler and a brawny barbarian in the party. The swashbuckler might enjoy the game more if I tend to describe the skillful way in which he turns his enemies' attacks aside at the last second, or has seemingly random chance intervene to save his like. The barbarian might instead prefer for me to describe the brutal blows he absorbs, which would surely fell any lesser man. Both can work off of the same hp system in the same game.

If I'm flexible in my interpretation of hp, I can do this. If I'm not, then I can't.
I agree with this too. But given the pulling back from 4e, I would expect WotC to pull back from this sort of approach to hp also.

What I think will stay from 4e is proportionate healing. Classic D&D non-proportionate healing makes no sense for any approach to hp. It certainly doesn't make sense on the "damage divisor" approach.

That's why I think the base system should remain as it always has (as Gary Gygax described hp in 1e). They can always add modules to make hp meat, but if they start with hp as purely physical they'll be discarding a number of intriguing ideas out of hand. There's no reason for that. Especially if they intend to keep with tradition.
I think staking a claim to "meta element" hp on tradition is tricky. Gygax contradicts his own essay, as I've noted, in elsewhere characterising hp loss as physcial damage. And as I've said, I think the physical interpretation is probably very common.

I think the "argument from supporting a wide range of concepts" is the better argument. Apart from anything else, "meta element" hp support another popular concept that physical hp don't, namely, 4e-style martial healing.
 

Ah, I misunderstood the reference.

I still don't agree with this. I think the "damage divisor" can work, in a rough and ready way, and while there will be rough places - falling the most notorious - it can muddle through.

I'm not certain what you mean by a damage divisor, but since you're responding to my comment on hp representing purely physical damage, I'll assume you mean "hp as only physical damage." There's no way to muddle through IMO (past the first few levels) with damage being purely physical.

By 11th level, an average hp Barbarian (3e) with 18 Con has 111 hp. An improbably lucky barbarian who rolls max hp and has a 20 Con will have 187 hp.

By comparison, a megaraptor (huge sized dinosaur) has only an average of 76 hp, while the typical tyrannosaurus only has 171 hp. How exactly can you muddle through justifying that an average 11th level barbarian can absorb more physical punishment than a megaraptor, while a paragon of barbarianism can absorb more than a t-rex? Outside of anime, which I have no qualms with because it's its own sub-genre, how exactly can you justify that an 8 foot man can withstand more injury than a 50 foot dinosaur?

Perhaps an even better example is the hill giant, standing 10.5 feet tall, weighing in at 1,100 pounds, and having an average of 102 hp. The 11th level barbarian probably stands no more than 8 feet and weighs about a third or less of the giant's weight, yet the average hp barbarian has slightly more hp than the giant, while the barbarian paragon has almost twice as many hp. That simply does not jive with the idea of hp as purely physical.

That's only an 11th level barbarian. A 20th level barbarian, outfitted in Con boosting items and perhaps even hp boosting feats can have a lot more than that. It also doesn't count the significant hp boost he gains from raging. Such a character might be able to take as much punishment as two to four hill giants!

The barbarian isn't a magical class. All of his powers are extraordinary, not supernatural. So then how is it that he achieves this seemingly superhuman feat of resilience? I posit that he doesn't. He may take some small amount of physical harm when he is hit, but he doesn't get bitten in half by the t-rex and then pull himself back together through sheer fortitude.

I think this is problem the single most common way in which D&D hp have been understood. Gygax himself, despite the long essay in his DMG on "meta elements", still refers to hp as physical damage in the footnote to the psionic attack charts. And it is a very tempting interpretation, lurking in the very phrase "hit points".

I don't think the two are contradictory at all. Gygax didn't typically refer to the meta because the meta is fine being left implicit. When discussing weapon damage, he didn't say "Longswords deal slashing damage, but they won't cut you in half if you still have hp, since some of that attack is absorbed by meta elements such as skill and luck." He wrote a brief essay on the topic in both the PHB and DMG. Presumably, he felt that that was sufficient.

As for the term "hit" points, my understanding is that the term is merely wargaming terminology that was carried over and adapted for D&D. The concept evolved but the name stayed the same.

I agree.

I agree with this too. But given the pulling back from 4e, I would expect WotC to pull back from this sort of approach to hp also.

Maybe, maybe not. They seem to be making a genuine effort to make a great game that appeals to everyone, so I don't think they'll be as ready this time around to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

What I think will stay from 4e is proportionate healing. Classic D&D non-proportionate healing makes no sense for any approach to hp. It certainly doesn't make sense on the "damage divisor" approach.

I agree.

I think staking a claim to "meta element" hp on tradition is tricky. Gygax contradicts his own essay, as I've noted, in elsewhere characterising hp loss as physcial damage. And as I've said, I think the physical interpretation is probably very common.

I think the "argument from supporting a wide range of concepts" is the better argument. Apart from anything else, "meta element" hp support another popular concept that physical hp don't, namely, 4e-style martial healing.

Admittedly, the physical interpretation does appear more common than I would have expected. As you say, a broader interpretation encompasses far more playstyles than a limited one.
 

I disagree - I like death spirals a lot. This pretty much comes down to personal preference.

Bit of a side tangent, but, I can totally see why death spirals are such a bad idea in D&D. Too much combat. A D&D character, throughout its career is intended to survive dozens, if not a couple of hundred, combats. Death spirals increase lethality. Doesn't matter to the bad guys because they're not really supposed to survive more than one fight anyway.

But, anything that increases the lethality of combat is always to the PC's detriment. This is one place where I really didn't like the 3e critical hits rules. WAYYY too punishing for the PC's. Roughly 2% chance of a crit on any attack, where a given combat would possibly see 20-25 attacks by the baddies (2 baddies, 3 attacks each (claw/claw/bite)x4 rounds is 24 attacks) means that you should be critting once every four encounters. Meanwhile, the PC's are likely critting at a fraction of that rate (first ten levels, only the fighter has multiple attacks for any decent length of time, probably the PC's are only making 10-15 attacks per combat).
 

There is an important difference between "all hp represent physical toughness (ie meat)" and "all hp loss (ie damage) is physical injury". The first entails the second. But the second doesn't entail the first.

I think 3E, by its official rules, asserts the second but denies the first. It has rules features, though, that encourage the first (ie hp = meat) interpretation (I mention 4 of them below).

I think that 4e, by its offical rules, rejects both proposition. This opens up the door for martial healing, fear attacks causing psychic damage, etc.

I think that AD&D is ambiguous as between the 3E and 4e approaches, but it certainly has some features that (in practice) push in the hp = meat direction.

There's no way to muddle through IMO (past the first few levels) with damage being purely physical.

By 11th level, an average hp Barbarian (3e) with 18 Con has 111 hp. An improbably lucky barbarian who rolls max hp and has a 20 Con will have 187 hp.

By comparison, a megaraptor (huge sized dinosaur) has only an average of 76 hp, while the typical tyrannosaurus only has 171 hp. How exactly can you muddle through justifying that an average 11th level barbarian can absorb more physical punishment than a megaraptor

<snip>

The barbarian isn't a magical class. All of his powers are extraordinary, not supernatural. So then how is it that he achieves this seemingly superhuman feat of resilience? I posit that he doesn't. He may take some small amount of physical harm when he is hit, but he doesn't get bitten in half by the t-rex and then pull himself back together through sheer fortitude.
I agree with this as a problem for the "hp as meat" approach. But you can hold that "all hp loss is physical damage" without holding that "hp are meat" - for example, by taking the "damage divisor" approach instead. (You could also go DougMcCrae's way, and say that high level PCs become magical or quasi-magical meat - the barbarian's hp become an EX ability, a bit like a troll's regeneration - less than mundane in some fashion, although not being lost in an anti-magic field.)

I'm not certain what you mean by a damage divisor, but since you're responding to my comment on hp representing purely physical damage, I'll assume you mean "hp as only physical damage."
By "damage divisor" approach I mean the idea that all hp loss represents physical damage, but that the amount of physical damage that X lost hit point represent is proporionate to level.

On this approach, when a 2nd level PC add a second die of hp, it's functionally equivalent to keepig hp static, but dividing all damage by 2. And, in general, when an Nth level PC has N hit dice, that is the functional equivalent of dividing all damage taken by N.

I think this is a very common interpretation of the standard rules text on hp, especially this from the d20 SRD:

Hit points mean two things in the game world: the ability to take physical punishment and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one.​

One natural reading of that sentence, in light of the way that hp work, is that all hit point loss represents physical damage, but a given amount of hit point loss means more or less damage depending on the total number of hp that the PC in question possesses. (That passage, for example, seems to rule out purely mental or emotional effects - like fear or 2nd ed-style Psychic Crush - causing hp loss. It also seems to rule out your swashbuckler narration - the swashbuckler is not making more serious blows less serious, but avoiding them altogether.)

The main places where the "divisor" approach breaks down are these:

*classic healing magic - if 32 hp on my 8th level fighter represents the same amount of injury as 4 hp on my 1st level fighter, how come Cure Light Wounds can fully heal the injury of the second character, but barely help the (ostensibly identical) injury of the first character?

*falling damage - how does fighting skill let you turn a fall into something less serious? are all high level PCs thief-acrobats?

*AoE damage - when you're caught in the middle of a fireball or dragon's breath, how can your fighting skill make that less serious? (Not everyone has a shield to duck behind, and not all these effects are directional.)

*the killing blow.

The last of these is interesting. Think about an actual "divisor rule" with standard D&D rounding down: an 8th level PC would take no damage from an attack dealing fewer than 8 hp. So no matter how badly injured, a blow would have to be at least an 8 hp blow (the best possible sword attack from an ordinary person with a longsword) to drop the PC. A 7 hp blow would do nothing.

Whereas with the actual hp mechanics that we have, the 7 hp blow can drop the 8th level PC to 1 hp, and then the merest scratch of a dagger can drop him/her. I don't know what those who hold with the "all hit points are physical, but there is a divisor effect" approach make of this fact, that when we get to very low hp left blows that should be having no effect can in fact drop the character. It's as if, at very low hp totals, the divisor is suddenly lost - the character loses his/her combat skill.

That's why I say that, on the divisor approach, you have to squint a bit to make it work. (On the pure "hp as meat" approach, in which we ignore the second phrase in the SRD definition, we don't get any of these squinting issues. Damage hacks away meat, while healng spells pack it back on. But of coures we do get the much more blatant issue of high level fighters being meatier than dinosaurs.)

I don't think the two are contradictory at all.
I think when the 1st ed says both that hp loss is not all physical damage (in the famous/notorious essay) and also glosses loss of hit points as physical damage (in the footnote to the psionic combat table) it has fallen into contradiction.

I don't think it's an especially severe contradiction. My only point was that even the 1st ed DMG had trouble making up its mind what hp loss represents.
 

Bit of a side tangent, but, I can totally see why death spirals are such a bad idea in D&D. Too much combat. A D&D character, throughout its career is intended to survive dozens, if not a couple of hundred, combats. Death spirals increase lethality. Doesn't matter to the bad guys because they're not really supposed to survive more than one fight anyway.

But, anything that increases the lethality of combat is always to the PC's detriment.
Having played a lot of a combat-oriented game that has a death spiral (namely, Rolemaster) I don't think it has to be as bad as is sometime made out. But the game does need to provide mechanical features that let the PCs overcome the death sprial in various ways (eg condition removal/alleviation, open-ended rolls, one-shot kills etc).

It also needs to be remembered that - if encounters are sensibly balanced - than many monsters will spend a lot more time suffering the death sprial penalties than do the PCs, and this has a countervailing effect of offering a way to take the out of the fight, or at least significantly reducing their impact on it, without having to fully defeat them.

There is a type of drama that Rolemaster can provide - when the last PC standing is at massive penalties, but then rolls double-open ended to win the fight - that is hard to get out of classic D&D combat (4e can get close, in part because of its big crit damage once magic items come into the picture, and maybe 3E is the same in this respect).

But I agree that D&D should do it's own thing. It's coped for a long time now without a death spiral.
 

By "damage divisor" approach I mean the idea that all hp loss represents physical damage, but that the amount of physical damage that X lost hit point represent is proporionate to level.

Another way to explain it is that physical damage is a percentage.

A 10th level fighter and a T-Rex have both been wounded to the same degree if they've taken 50% of their hit points as damage. How that happened is different - the tyrannosaurus is huge and probably took many deep wounds, while the fighter probably turned most hits into grazes or took them on armor.

I feel that this is a natural interpretation, though by no means the only one, of how hit points are described and work in AD&D and especially 3e.
 
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I think when the 1st ed says both that hp loss is not all physical damage (in the famous/notorious essay) and also glosses loss of hit points as physical damage (in the footnote to the psionic combat table) it has fallen into contradiction.

I don't think it's an especially severe contradiction. My only point was that even the 1st ed DMG had trouble making up its mind what hp loss represents.

I don't think it's a contradiction at all. Hit points do represent a degree of physical damage, that's why characters die when they run out.

It just depends on the context, as the essay pointed out. In the psionics case, it's like that movie scanners, you start getting a nose bleed, then your head explodes (in the case of dying from a really massive mental blow)
 

Another way to explain it is that physical damage is a percentage.

It's as if, at very low hp totals, the divisor is suddenly lost - the character loses his/her combat skill.

That's why I say that, on the divisor approach, you have to squint a bit to make it work.

Oh, and this is no problem with a pure "damage percentage" interpretation. The divisor is slowly eroded away, as an X damage hit can be described as a worse wound the fewer hp you have left. Only the total hp matters, since that determines how long your injuries take to heal.

(Two graze wounds won't take much longer to heal than one, so a second X damage hit is more severe than the first.)

This way "loss of divisor" actually models how you become wearier as the injuries pile up.
 

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