Paul Farquhar
Legend
Only those who were unhappy/unsuccessful doing what they were doing in the first place.
D&D General Why does D&D still have 16th to 20th level?
- Thread starter Yora
- Start date
Well, except in "1971" (I assume you must have been playing in the Twin Cities) the rules actually did change and with the game as levels increased, so I don't have the first clue what your point is.
Yeah, I think you are arguing just to argue. If you want to actually discuss the late/high level game from differing perspectives, that's awesome. I'm game. But I don't think you want to based on that response. Have a nice day!
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
And yet this has been a consistent problem for decades. Clearly its not just a matter of "tweaking" the rules.
Not to mention it has been solved, officially, in multiple ways over the decades and editions. The only people that seem to plant the flag that it isn't and has never been a thing are 5E fans.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
I know my players wanted to carry on adventuring. They did not want to go into management, which is the sort of thing they do in real life and play D&D to get away from.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
So start a new campaign then. If the game ended adventuring at 10-11 (with the occasional exception) we wouldn't have these issues.
That is a much different and much more relevant answer than the one you gave to which i responded. If high level play isn't a slog for you, then obviously you don't need to change what you do. But if it is a slog, or boring, or irrelevant, then that's what my recommendation was addressing.
IF folks are happy doing dungeons at 18th level, then they should continue doing so and the game should enable it. But there should absolutely be other kinds of play available at "name level" where the game as played at 5th level starts to break down.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
See i read the message you responded to as, "my players want to keep adventuring, but the game does a poor job of supporting me in that past a certain level".
Me too, but apparently I was wrong.
By Game design the character can do anything the DM can imagine, and will allow. Having a rule for everything would take away half the fun. Some players get so into thier characters they want to play them to some pinnacle. I've got npc's in my world that were former players. Even a few that have joined pantheons.
Every attempt I've seen to publish "epic" level rules turns into a highspeed railroad to make it easier for the DM and at the same time sucks all the fun out of the game. zKind've like the monster manual, spell books, and magical item's lists. known is boring. uknown is cool. that is never going to change.
EzekielRaiden
Legend
No one is asking for that, so it isn't very productive to attack that man, no matter how tempting his straw body may be.
You don't need "a rule for everything" to have a game that works out of the box and actually supports key archetypes (like "Fighter") equally to the ones that traditionally got the preferential treatment (like "Wizard.")
I'm curious how making things easier for the DM translates into less fun for the players. Seems to me that making things harder for the DM would translate into no fun for anyone.
I said it in my post. Known is boring, unknown is fun. known is expected, unknown is excitement.
I....what? You lost me. Game easier for DM to run =/= excitement of facing the unknown.
Vaalingrade
Legend
I feel like there is an assumption that every DM is a Level 85 DM with no day job or hobbies outside of making the game. If you're not putting your all into punching the game into shape, a cutlass clenched between your teeth and blood dripping over one eye, you are slacking off.
Shardstone
Hero
I just want a more expansive game for levels 11-20, instead of the something with half the thought put into it as 1-10.
Vaalingrade
Legend
I'd personally like half the thought that wa sput into 3-10 and absolutely none of the thoughts that went into 1 and 2.
Aren't 1 and 2 afterthoughts added to make people who want "zero to hero" happy?
