D&D General Why does D&D still have 16th to 20th level?

[Vaalingrade]

Aren't 1 and 2 afterthoughts added to make people who want "zero to hero" happy?

Pretty much.

 

[Luceilia]

Sometimes I want the journey to be part of the challenge. If I don't I'll just narrate it. I want the option.

There are narrative reasons as well. Basically I don't want players expecting to be able to snap their fingers to have a chat with their homie Odin by casting plane shift.

I mean, that's just a question of setting right?

Surely Odin's palace is going to have wards against any form of uninvited teleportation, so at most they're going to be planeshifting just outside the front gate and have to submit a petition to see him or try their luck at barging through his warriors.

 

[Micah Sweet]

By Game design the character can do anything the DM can imagine, and will allow. Having a rule for everything would take away half the fun. Some players get so into thier characters they want to play them to some pinnacle. I've got npc's in my world that were former players. Even a few that have joined pantheons.

Every attempt I've seen to publish "epic" level rules turns into a highspeed railroad to make it easier for the DM and at the same time sucks all the fun out of the game. zKind've like the monster manual, spell books, and magical item's lists. known is boring. uknown is cool. that is never going to change.

Can you think of a rules system that makes epic-play easier for the DM that doesn't "suck all the fun out of the game"?

 

[Minigiant]

This is why I say definition of what 16th-20th level adventurers are is the first hurdle.

The core of a legend, myth, or superhero story is defining what they can do, what they could face, and how they interact.

The Science Hero, Magic Hero and the Guile Hero don't work until you express the possibly of super science, super magic, or super intelligence.

 

[James Gasik]

Can you think of a rules system that makes epic-play easier for the DM that doesn't "suck all the fun out of the game"?

I know you didn't ask me, but maybe a Superhero system?

 

[Luceilia]

I think this is the storytelling problem. You need to run 4 consecutive Endgames, not just one, to get from 16 to 20,

Chinese Fantasy (the crazy stuff, not Wuxia) has a solution to this.

There comes a point where the protagonist outgrows the minor world they grew up on and they ascend to a wider, greater world.

Some things resemble the lower level events, but the good stories allow the tone and flow to continue to shift and change as the character grows.

 

[Minigiant]

I think one of the eal issues is that post 15th level or so, the game only makes sense if you are sandboxy AND all access to almost every effect...

but for your setting's full world and every effect not tied to a deity or artifact.

So what happens is after level 15, you really stop writing "adventures" and are more defining the worldbuild.

Kinda how in epic space stories, the heroes just start flying around to anywhere they want to go that is cauually mentioned having something or being the home of someone.

 

[Luceilia]

If people wanted to not-adventure they wouldn't have become adventurers.

I feel like defining people entirely by one job is a little sketch...

They adventured when it suited them to adventure, they aren't cursed or honor bound to Adventure the rest of their lives.

Imo, there is a lot of merit to the idea that conventional 'adventuring' is something lesser beings do until they acquire the power, finances and renown to do something better with their lives.

 

[Malmuria]

So start a new campaign then. If the game ended adventuring at 10-11 (with the occasional exception) we wouldn't have these issues.

It seems like 5e is a game that doesn't support level 13+ for a variety of reasons. So when they release a revised edition of the game, it seems logical to either 1) cut those levels out, and maybe put them in an Advanced PHB or 2) provide "support" for them, with support meaning a game that affords both high level planar adventuring and a faction/strongholds/intrigue/warfare game. What doesn't seem logical is to keep it as it is, with high level content being represented by things like "improved divine smite" and various game-breaking spells.

 

[Reynard]

It seems like 5e is a game that doesn't support level 13+ for a variety of reasons. So when they release a revised edition of the game, it seems logical to either 1) cut those levels out, and maybe put them in an Advanced PHB or 2) provide "support" for them, with support meaning a game that affords both high level planar adventuring and a faction/strongholds/intrigue/warfare game. What doesn't seem logical is to keep it as it is, with high level content being represented by things like "improved divine smite" and various game-breaking spells.

I don't think you necessarily have to do planar adventures at high level. there are plenty of other possibilities. But what I do think you need to do if you are still going to "adventure" at that level is a) make it epic, and b) make it player driven. The PCs decide to kill a god. The PCs decide to destroy an evil artifact. The PCs decide to conquer a nation. The PCs decide go back in time and fix their greatest mistake. Player driven games are always a good idea but I think they are essential to epic level play.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

They adventured when it suited them to adventure, they aren't cursed or honor bound to Adventure the rest of their lives.

It's the players who want to continue to adventure. Their characters might be happy to settle down and run a small tea shop.

 

[Oofta]

I mean, that's just a question of setting right?

Surely Odin's palace is going to have wards against any form of uninvited teleportation, so at most they're going to be planeshifting just outside the front gate and have to submit a petition to see him or try their luck at barging through his warriors.

It's mostly just personal preference and setting. My cosmology is loosely based on Norse lore, with the planes being different realms on the tree Yggdrasil. To get to Asgard you have to cross the bifrost bridge. , to get from one realm you have to travel through specific portals and doorways. It was just my way of having options because "I cast plane shift" or "I teleport" can be boring. I want the option to make the journey as interesting as the destination if it makes for a good story.

 

[Luceilia]

It's mostly just personal preference and setting. My cosmology is loosely based on Norse lore, with the planes being different realms on the tree Yggdrasil. To get to Asgard you have to cross the bifrost bridge. , to get from one realm you have to travel through specific portals and doorways. It was just my way of having options because "I cast plane shift" or "I teleport" can be boring. I want the option to make the journey as interesting as the destination if it makes for a good story.

Just curious... Do you apply the same requirements to Odin himself?

Does he have to use the Bifrost if he feels like visiting other planes?

 

[Oofta]

Just curious... Do you apply the same requirements to Odin himself?

Does he have to use the Bifrost if he feels like visiting other planes?

Gods don't have to follow the same rules as mere mortals. However if you read Norse mythology there are a lot of stories of, for example, the gods having a wall built around Asgard. Or Thor travelling around visiting and having adventures. So I wanted to kind of reflect that.

 

[Luceilia]

Gods don't have to follow the same rules as mere mortals. However if you read Norse mythology there are a lot of stories of, for example, the gods having a wall built around Asgard. Or Thor travelling around visiting and having adventures. So I wanted to kind of reflect that.

True.

In my own campaigns PCs stop being pure mortals at level 13 and my Odin is just level 20, but that's just me lol. I know my takes are the odd one out.

 

[Oofta]

True.

In my own campaigns PCs stop being pure mortals at level 13 and my Odin is just level 20, but that's just me lol. I know my takes are the odd one out.

Yeah, the gods in my campaigns are distant and mysterious. You might interact with a Valkyrie or Einherjar, but that's as close as you're going to get unless you're dead.

 

[d24454_modern]

Can you think of a rules system that makes epic-play easier for the DM that doesn't "suck all the fun out of the game"?

But it’s fun for me to make monsters and encounters.

It’s annoying that I have to nix so many ideas because it’d be too hard for the players.

 

[Stalker0]

I don't think you necessarily have to do planar adventures at high level. there are plenty of other possibilities. But what I do think you need to do if you are still going to "adventure" at that level is a) make it epic, and b) make it player driven. The PCs decide to kill a god. The PCs decide to destroy an evil artifact. The PCs decide to conquer a nation. The PCs decide go back in time and fix their greatest mistake. Player driven games are always a good idea but I think they are essential to epic level play.

Time crunches are also a very important lever. Save the world…no problem! Save the world in an hour…now it’s a challenge

 

[d24454_modern]

True.

In my own campaigns PCs stop being pure mortals at level 13 and my Odin is just level 20, but that's just me lol. I know my takes are the odd one out.

I find it funny how in 3e, the official Odin had an ECL of 60 without counting Divine Abilities.

It makes it really jarring when people actually as though you become invincible at Level 15. That just tells me that the DMs aren’t trying enough imo.

 

[Oofta]

I find it funny how in 3e, the official Odin had an ECL of 60 without counting Divine Abilities.

It makes it really jarring when people actually as though you become invincible at Level 15. That just tells me that the DMs aren’t trying enough imo.

I agree. Now excuse me while figure out how to use mob rules for tarrasques that have a contingent of beholder allies.