D&D General Why does D&D still have 16th to 20th level?

[GreyLord]

AD&D HAD NO LEVEL LIMITS for humans and certain classes of demihumans.

The tables may stop at lower levels in what they explicitly show, but they also explain how advancement beyond that can occur. 20th level was NOT the highest level you could go.

AD&D 2e had NO LEVEL LIMITS for humans and certain classes of demihumans.

The tables may have stopped at lower levels in what they show on a table, but they also explain how advancement beyond that can occur. 20th level was NOT the highest level you could go.

BX had NO LEVEL LIMITS for humans.

IT had plans to show higher levels, but really only showed levelling up to around level 14 It did have an explanation of how to go higher levels than that.

BECMI DID have a level limit of 36 for humans...which is a LOT higher than level 10 OR level 20.

D&D 3e technically had NO LEVEL LIMITS.

IT had it's core rules only really apply up to level 20 and epic rules which were different apply to higher levels, but in theory there was no upper limit.

4e was the first to really introduce a universal level limit of 30 or less.

5e has a level limit of 20 (though it has epic boons and feats that one could take after that). The question then isn't why D&D still has level 16th to 20th, but why it is so restrictive that it feels that the game needs to specifically limit people in a bounded way like this???

Obviously it must be popular to have the game limit groups like this by limiting the maximum available level...but why...beats me.

Perhaps it's the desire for a small group of people to be able to "win" the game. You had a few of those in 3e and 4e...where you can win by maximizing your character at the "maximum" level of 20...thus..."you win." Maybe...but I don't know why they purposefully limited the game to 20 levels and less which is different than any other version of prior D&D.

 

[Stalker0]

The D&D Beyond Data tends to get brought up as undisputable. It's not. That's rather the point of this tangent.

You are correct, and we can try to poke holes in methodology…but ultimately until someone does another study that opposes the first…the absolute best you could argue is “no one knows”.

saying a good number of people play high levels would be as wrong a statement as saying they don’t if you believe the data is flawed. But you could not say “a good number of people play high levels”…there is 0 scientific ground to stand on that platform currently.

At the end of the day, I follow the money. Wotc has a strong business desire to gather stats to make informed business decisions. Right now those stats say people in general don’t play past 11th. I am sure that wotc would love if the data said otherwise, if the market suggested a demand for high level products wotc would love to fill it…but it doesn’t, which is why I’m inclined to believe it.

 

[Older Beholder]

It's nice to have that 'end game' option for those that want it.

I've been playing for a year with a guy that's reasonably new to D&D who's running his first campaign, we're currently at level 14, which is as high as I've ever played a character. I feel he plans to run the game until we reach level 20, as though that's a goal that should be aimed for.

In a different game I've played for over a year with a more experienced DM we recently reached level 10 and the DM said we'll be facing the final battle next session in which he plans to make the fight as challenging as possible, and that depending on how many characters survive we might take a break before starting something new after that.

 

[Weiley31]

I'd say that 5E's version of Prestige Classes should've been an option for covering Levels 15-20 if the player didn't want to take a regular class all the way to its cap. But after the latest Strixhaven UA, I feel like that could be a better or an alternative route to that idea.

 

[Nefermandias]

My group has played multiple campaigns to those levels. Yeah, things get kind of wahoo in a high level campaign. I've still found ways to challenge the players, but you can't use the same types of challenges you would at 1st level. It's fine and it's fun and it's fairly short. A way to (hopefully) end the campaign on a really high note.

I've been playing/DMing since 2e and our campaigns always go beyond 20. OP is grossly generalizing things and that makes me kinda upset, to be honest.

 

[TwoSix]

I think the implication is that if you make it to over 15 or so, might as well keep going up to 20. Stopping at 17-19 (especially 19) is sort of like leaving one bite of your ice cream cone. The deed is already done.

I do feel that ignores a bit that Tier 4 (17+) is pretty different in 5e. 9th level spells are a really different beast than 6th through 8th, and quite a few classes have abilities that profoundly impact the overall gameplay. The difference between level 11 and level 15 isn't actually that profound, provided magic items grants don't get out of control.

 

[Nefermandias]

To hear people talk on this forum it's nigh on impossible after level 3, so how am I supposed to fulfill my quota of PC deaths per campaign if I eliminate the first two levels?

That's the real play right there. Gotta kill as many PCs as you can before they get past lvl 3.

 

[FrogReaver]

I do feel that ignores a bit that Tier 4 (17+) is pretty different in 5e. 9th level spells are a really different beast than 6th through 8th, and quite a few classes have abilities that profoundly impact the overall gameplay. The difference between level 11 and level 15 isn't actually that profound, provided magic items grants don't get out of control.

Except for wizards. They really scale up in power from 11-15. A few other full casters are the similar as well.

 

[TwoSix]

Except for wizards. They really scale up in power from 11-15. A few other full casters are the similar as well.

See, I don't really feel like they do get that much. Full casters get one 6th, one 7th, and one 8th level spell slot between 11 and 16, and maybe a subclass feature or two. And honestly, I find most of the 6th-8th level spells sort of underwhelming, with a few outliers. Forcecage, obviously. Wind Walk is great utility. I know there's some others, but I've never felt like there were a ton of great options.

 

[FrogReaver]

See, I don't really feel like they do get that much. Full casters get one 6th, one 7th, and one 8th level spell slot between 11 and 16, and maybe a subclass feature or two. And honestly, I find most of the 6th-8th level spells sort of underwhelming, with a few outliers. Forcecage, obviously. Wind Walk is great utility. I know there's some others, but I've never felt like there were a ton of great options.

Teleport, planeshift, forcage, contingency, simulacrum, mass suggestion, tons of amazing control spells.