Why does nobody complain about the monk?

[Cor_Malek]

While mechanically a monk could spend an entire campaign doing no other attack than a straight punch with his right hand thousands of times, I'd rather not have a magic item setup that forces you to flavor him as only attacking with that one specific appendage. That's not what unarmed strike is. Again, why can't monk just pay 1x cost on the amulet and enhance his entire unarmed strike. All one of it, since it's all considered the same weapon.

The enhancement had to be spread appropriately. Just as monks whole body is treated as one weapon, whole set (bandages for hands, headband and tabi for feet (also bandages at first IIRC)) of protector wrappings were treated as one enhanced weapon. *Just as giving turbo only to front, rear, left or right wheels in 4x4 will make it worse to drive(as in massive difference, not balancing), wearing only hand-wrappings would give slight (+1/2) bonus to damage and massive penalty to hit. He could use right jab exclusively, but even to do that, he'd have to wear the whole thing (not that it mattered, playing with him taught me a lot about various ways of hitting things. Only then I've learned that ryuken was real, and quite common way of punching (you put your middle finger forward, which focuses the force in that point; useful when hitting soft spots like kidneys)).

Getting them on was a whole thing as well - I don't remember how long it took, but it was quite substantial (not plausible to change during a fight) since he had to go through some monkish mojo, which helped us to avert the warrior weapon golf bag syndrome (though quite unwittingly on our part, never had problems with that. For different reasons but pretty much all of us were bonded with our weapons of choice).
This increase of needed material helped out with raw material cost as well - we didn't have to cramp all the GP's into one hand, but rather the whole set. But that said, what boosted material cost wasn't the amount of it, or even it's quality, but peculiarity (like being soaked in dragons blood).

*Truth to be said, we kind of understood what the deal was between DM and us, so this "+dmg -hit without whole set" thing - I invented for convenience of people who need to have it written down ;-)

[edit]:

For my own tastes, the best answer is to scrap "Monks" altogether. Unarmed combatants should not be able to compete with armed combatants. Not without bringing in definite (and probably obvious) supernatural forces. Same thing goes for armour.

Unarmed fighting was a core component of the training of a "knight", sure, but it was only there as a fallback, and/or as something to add in here and there (e.g., wrestling-style moves to unbalance a foe, etc.) See Improved Trip, et al.

Um, not quite. Short of static blocks, which are fencers euphemism for "I f up, damn, damn", when you parry - you divert opponents blade, and same goes for unarmed fighting. It's in the very nature of fencing, that 99% of the time you train against the very same or similar weapon that you use, as most of it that actually needs any skill is the work on the blade (when both weapons are touching eachother). The most sure way to harm unarmed opponent with a blade are x swings. And cutting people just lacks stopping and killing power of a stab (which is the main reason, why there was so many more deaths in XVII-XIX c. duels in west than in east Europe - one preferred stabbing and the other slashing weapons).

It's the curse of police officers, that in a fight between someone with a gun and with a knife - the outcome is clear only to a layman. Your gun needs helluva stopping power to halt the attacker before he cuts you up (and in close range, all you have is essentially a blunt object ). Sure, one shot might kill him. But until he drops from blood-loss, he'll either faint right away(no matter whether you even hit him in ~60% of cases) or... not notice for about 1.5-2 minutes. In which case, you're in trouble. That's actually the beauty of shotguns - it's not necessarily more lethal, but the hydrodynamic force and multiple pain recipients halt the target in place.

To be clear: I'm not advocating that it's preferable or even on par to fight unarmed against people using weapons, but that there's sure a lot of space for suspension of disbelief

 

[Pezmerga]

What I do with monk in my games to make them less MAD is this...
I just let them add Wisdom to Attack and Damage. Kind of like a mind over matter approach. . Maybe just do that and restrict it to single class monks so you dont abuse the Wisdom?

Or maybe do Dex to hit and Wisdom to damage if you dont want a "God stat".

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

What I do with monk in my games to make them less MAD is this...
I just let them add Wisdom to Attack and Damage. Kind of like a mind over matter approach. . Maybe just do that and restrict it to single class monks so you dont abuse the Wisdom?

FWIW, there is a PrCl in Oriental Adventures that does exactly that.

 

[kalani]

Personally, I take a page from the 4E monk, and allow monks to get enchanted ki straps which (for all intents and purposes) allow the monk to add magic weapon properties to their unarmed strikes (takes up the bracer slot).

I really don't see how a pair of +3 flaming ki straps is that much different to a fighters +3 flaming weapon, once you consider the fact that the enhancement is being applied to the classes primary "weapon".

As far as the MAD issue goes, I use a simple house rule.

"Intuitive Attack" (BoED) is no longer considered an Exalted feat (I never could figure out why that feat was exalted in the first place, psionic perhaps, but definately not exalted). In addition, I allow monks to take "Intuitive Attack" as a monk bonus feat (at 1st level or above).

 

[TanisFrey]

Personally, I take a page from the 4E monk, and allow monks to get enchanted ki straps which (for all intents and purposes) allow the monk to add magic weapon properties to their unarmed strikes (takes up the bracer slot).

I really don't see how a pair of +3 flaming ki straps is that much different to a fighters +3 flaming weapon, once you consider the fact that the enhancement is being applied to the classes primary "weapon".

As far as the MAD issue goes, I use a simple house rule.

"Intuitive Attack" (BoED) is no longer considered an Exalted feat (I never could figure out why that feat was exalted in the first place, psionic perhaps, but definately not exalted). In addition, I allow monks to take "Intuitive Attack" as a monk bonus feat (at 1st level or above).

No need to import from 4ed D&D when the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide induces the Brass Knuckles and the Cestus. Both are simple weapons that are monk special weapons. The Monk's unarmed damage is used if it is greater than the listed 1d3 x2 or 1d4 19-20/x2 damage. Being weapons, feel free to enchant as you wish.

 

[Voadam]

Personally, I take a page from the 4E monk, and allow monks to get enchanted ki straps which (for all intents and purposes) allow the monk to add magic weapon properties to their unarmed strikes (takes up the bracer slot).

I really don't see how a pair of +3 flaming ki straps is that much different to a fighters +3 flaming weapon, once you consider the fact that the enhancement is being applied to the classes primary "weapon".

Amulet of mighty fists but in the bracers slot instead of amulet slot?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Even giving monk wisdom to hit instead of strength for FREE (ie, not as a bonus feat option) won't do jack to solve their MAD. They still need strength for damage and combat maneuvers. At least...considering the whole martial arts "angle" and all the bonus feat options they have related to the maneuvers, I thought they were supposed to be good at them. Maybe I'm crazy.

Look at what Pathfinder did to help out the Paladin's MAD (which, IMO, was never even as bad as a monk's anyway: You only really need Wis 14, not like an extra spell slot or 2 will matter much; dex and int are fairly safe dump stats). Paladins completely and utterly dumped wisdom from their "good abilities to have" list. Nothing, nothing at all other than will saves (which got bumped to good progression anyway) and some class skills use it any more. Wisdom is actually a major dump stat for a PF Paladin IME. That's what monks need. Pick a stat, and realign the class features to make that stat completely unimportant, so you can focus your ability scores on "only" 3 major areas. I wouldn't mind seeing strength become unimportant for a Monk, both to stand out from every other high str melee brute and to better fit the "mystical" superhuman wuxia image. To do that, you need to make str irrelevant on attack, damage, and combat maneuver checks, at a bare minimum. And it should NOT cost feats. I believe I posted my basic idea for shifting these to wisdom-based rolls earlier in this thread...

No need to import from 4ed D&D when the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide induces the Brass Knuckles and the Cestus. Both are simple weapons that are monk special weapons. The Monk's unarmed damage is used if it is greater than the listed 1d3 x2 or 1d4 19-20/x2 damage. Being weapons, feel free to enchant as you wish.

And we come full circle again...

I do not like having to restrict my attack descriptions as a monk to ONLY punches, kicks, or wherever the magic trinket happens to reside. The whole freaking point of unarmed strike is it encomapsses your whole body, your body itself is the weapon, no matter which portion of it you happen ot be striking with. I get that mechanically there's no real difference, but I still hate it. Why can't there just be a robe, or a fairly priced amulet of mighty fists, or whatever? Why is that so much to ask for?! Did Paizo have a change of heart and see the light with the printing of the APG, that monks deserve fairly priced magic enhancements? Why can't they just admit they were wrong and errata the bloody amulet, then? WotC implicitly admitted Fighter sucked by printing Warblade so we could use that instead, rather than just tweak the Fighter. Spellthief sucked, so instead of boosting the class, they "patched" it with the Master Spellthief feat to make the class palatable. And so on... Why is Paizo following in those terrible footsteps?
/bolded anger text

Amulet of mighty fists but in the bracers slot instead of amulet slot?

And sanely priced, hopefully.

 

[Pezmerga]

Even giving monk wisdom to hit instead of strength for FREE (ie, not as a bonus feat option) won't do jack to solve their MAD. They still need strength for damage and combat maneuvers. At least...considering the whole martial arts "angle" and all the bonus feat options they have related to the maneuvers, I thought they were supposed to be good at them. Maybe I'm crazy.

Look at what Pathfinder did to help out the Paladin's MAD (which, IMO, was never even as bad as a monk's anyway: You only really need Wis 14, not like an extra spell slot or 2 will matter much; dex and int are fairly safe dump stats). Paladins completely and utterly dumped wisdom from their "good abilities to have" list. Nothing, nothing at all other than will saves (which got bumped to good progression anyway) and some class skills use it any more. Wisdom is actually a major dump stat for a PF Paladin IME. That's what monks need. Pick a stat, and realign the class features to make that stat completely unimportant, so you can focus your ability scores on "only" 3 major areas. I wouldn't mind seeing strength become unimportant for a Monk, both to stand out from every other high str melee brute and to better fit the "mystical" superhuman wuxia image. To do that, you need to make str irrelevant on attack, damage, and combat maneuver checks, at a bare minimum. And it should NOT cost feats. I believe I posted my basic idea for shifting these to wisdom-based rolls earlier in this thread...



And we come full circle again...

I do not like having to restrict my attack descriptions as a monk to ONLY punches, kicks, or wherever the magic trinket happens to reside. The whole freaking point of unarmed strike is it encomapsses your whole body, your body itself is the weapon, no matter which portion of it you happen ot be striking with. I get that mechanically there's no real difference, but I still hate it. Why can't there just be a robe, or a fairly priced amulet of mighty fists, or whatever? Why is that so much to ask for?! Did Paizo have a change of heart and see the light with the printing of the APG, that monks deserve fairly priced magic enhancements? Why can't they just admit they were wrong and errata the bloody amulet, then? WotC implicitly admitted Fighter sucked by printing Warblade so we could use that instead, rather than just tweak the Fighter. Spellthief sucked, so instead of boosting the class, they "patched" it with the Master Spellthief feat to make the class palatable. And so on... Why is Paizo following in those terrible footsteps?
/bolded anger text



And sanely priced, hopefully.

How about adding Dex to hit and to Combat Maneuvers when using a monk Unarmed, Temple Sword, etc., and Wis to Damage (instead of Str.)? That solves the MAD a bit. Only have to worry about WIS, DEX and CON then...New Paladin has to Invest in STR, CHA, and CON. Seems fair to me. Not saying its the best fix, but it works without totally redoing the class...Personally I think the Monk has too much fluff, which is his problem. On paper he looks great at first glance. Then you make one...

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

. . . And so on... Why is Paizo following in those terrible footsteps?

Maybe Paizo believes monk is a class for people who are keen to play class below par but want to play that theme anyways? In a way like how 3.x Toughness was designed as a subpar feat that system mastery folks would discover its suckage, and feel that glow inside when they "go it" and now knew enough to skip over it, and then someday they would play a character who would take the feat knowing it was a subpar feat because it fit the character.

The game within the game within the game within the . . .

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Last night I was actually thinking... with the elimination of the concentration skill (which most monks never had a use for anyway), just how much does Con really affect things for a monk? Might be interesting to replace that and have a Str, Dex, Wis class.

HP: For every HD you gain as a monk, you can use wisdom instead of Con for bonus hp.
Fort saves: Not sure this needs a replacement, monks already get the good base save.
Death and Dying: Problematic, since in PF you die at -Con Score and the stabilization roll is con-based. Not sure the best way to replace this, probably just use wisdom or something.

Maybe Paizo believes monk is a class for people who are keen to play class below par but want to play that theme anyways? In a way like how 3.x Toughness was designed as a subpar feat that system mastery folks would discover its suckage, and feel that glow inside when they "go it" and now knew enough to skip over it, and then someday they would play a character who would take the feat knowing it was a subpar feat because it fit the character.

The game within the game within the game within the . . .

Toughness in 3E was a feat to take for a 1st level character in a one-shot core-only game, which are not entirely uncommon. Given those parameters, Toughness can actually rise to the level of a "good" feat, even.

In any case, a crappy feat is not the same as an entire class sucking. PF was a re-do of 3E, I'm not very sympathetic that they left the monk a sub-par class still.