Why Does spell Reasearch Have Such a High Cost?

[dcollins]

There is no inherent power difference, however, implied or in fact, stemming from whether that spell was from the PHB, Tome and blood, BoEM 46, the Sunday paper , a custom one introduced by the GM or one researched by the player... meanwhile, as to making up class abilities and that nonsense, there are sections in the PHB and DMg on customizing classes by doing just that.

Note two important things about all the suggestions for other "customizing character" variants which you reference: they are (1) established only at character creation, and (2) come only by discarding other abilities, feats, or skills. Researching original spells falls very much outside that category, in that some players (apparently) see it as a loophole by which they can add yet more features on a weekly basis, and never give up anything in exchange for it.

Researching original spells does more than merely add another spell to the spellbook: it also expands the class spell list. That's an increase in power beyond that of choosing from any DM-established list of options. In exchange for that flexibility, the PC must give up a good sum of money, and only in that way is the open-ended spell-list-expansion capability balanced.

 

[SnowDog]

Counterspell argument is very valid

The way I've played it is that there are two categories of "new" spells in the game world.

The first, and more common, are spells that are new to the character but not the world. For example, someone buys "The PDF of Wizardry and Woe" and decides he likes the spell "Increase Woe" (can you tell I'm making these up? ). He points it out to the DM, who agrees, and says, "But your character has never seen this spell."

Later, said DM slips it into a scroll that the party finds when they loot the lair of the Perilous Foobar of Doom. Lost arcane lore from another age? Or just from across the ocean? Who can say? It's new to the character, but not to the game world. Someone who sees the character casting it might make a spellcraft roll to determine that it is, in fact, the ancient spell "Increase Woe" that they read about in some book once. This gives the opposing force a chance to counter the spell, to learn something about its characteristics, etc.

The much rarer form is when the character actually comes up with the spell (whether it's an original player-designed spell or one from a sourcebook). In this case, the character is the first one to put magic together in this way. No spellcraft roll can determine what spell this is. Nobody can counter it, except by Dispel Magic. Nobody knows how long it lasts, etc. That's a huge benefit.

Part of the balance of D&D is that wizards, being all scholarly and having high Spellcraft skills, can figure out magic that they see in action. The way D&D handles this is that the vast majority of magic falls into specific spells that are commonly known.

To shift the world such that customized magic is more common, you'd want to take a very close look at the spellcraft/counterspell system to make sure you aren't giving your players a huge advantage.

As an example, imagine the player comes up with a spell very similar to Magic Missile -- maybe even a little weaker. There's no denying it's "balanced" right? Not really. Every caster in the world knows Magic Missile. They know what absorbs it. They know it's force-based. They probably have MM memorized themselves and can counter it. But they have no idea what "Bobby's Magic Boom-Ball" is, what spells work against it, and how to counter it. They don't know if it does D4 damage or 10D6. Should they run for their lives, or just shrug away the annoyance?

If you were to change spellcraft such that it would tell the person using it: "This is a custom spell, it can be blocked by X, countered by Y, it isn't much more damaging than magic missile, etc..." then I'd feel more comfortable allowing more custom magic.

Again -- as others have said -- you begin, when you do that, to seriously stray from the D&D magic system. There are games with much more flexible magic systems (Mage: The Ascension and Ars Magica come to mind immediately) that you might be interested in looking at for ideas.

Good luck, and I hope you and your players have fun. After all, that's the whole point. Everything else is just icing on the cake, right?

 

[bret]

Making up your own class features (original spells) is not the "exact same" as picking spells from a class list in a rulebook. It's a huge benefit not available to any other class type.

I'm curious, but exactly what is any other class type?

There are a lot of spellcasting classes in DnD. Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, Druids, Bards, Paladins, and Rangers.

The classes that can't cast spells are Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues. Even in that case, there are a fair number of PrCs (Assassin, Temple Raider, Spell Dancer) that give spellcasting abilities. Even if they start out as a non-spellcaster, there is a good chance that they will pick it up later.

Seems like it is a benefit that most of the classes get.

 

[Merlion]

Making up your own class features (original spells) is not the "exact same" as picking spells from a class list in a rulebook. It's a huge benefit not available to any other class type.

If their balanced spells, it basicaly is. and seeing how all but 4 classes out of 11 cast spells almost all the "class types" have it.

 

[Merlion]

Re: Counterspell argument is very valid

To shift the world such that customized magic is more common, you'd want to take a very close look at the spellcraft/counterspell system to make sure you aren't giving your players a huge advantage.

As an example, imagine the player comes up with a spell very similar to Magic Missile -- maybe even a little weaker. There's no denying it's "balanced" right? Not really. Every caster in the world knows Magic Missile. They know what absorbs it. They know it's force-based. They probably have MM memorized themselves and can counter it. But they have no idea what "Bobby's Magic Boom-Ball" is, what spells work against it, and how to counter it. They don't know if it does D4 damage or 10D6. Should they run for their lives, or just shrug away the annoyance?



Again -- as others have said -- you begin, when you do that, to seriously stray from the D&D magic system. There are games with much more flexible magic systems (Mage: The Ascension and Ars Magica come to mind immediately) that you might be interested in looking at for ideas.

Good luck, and I hope you and your players have fun. After all, that's the whole point. Everything else is just icing on the cake, right?

All the benefits you describe are almost entrily roleplaying benefits...accept for the countering thing and a custom spell can be countered..by dispel/greater dispel and by Improved Counterspell. I dont think the rules should actively enforce large mechanic-prices on RP benefits. as Petrosian has already mentioned in all likelihood the cost was in fact made as high as it is in order to in fact discourage spell research so neophyte DMs dont have to make to many "judgement calls". But really also as Petrosian said an experienced DM is actualy more likely than a game designer in some ways to be able to know whats going to work in HIS(or HER) campaign

 

[Petrosian]

[/B][/QUOTE]

Note two important things about all the suggestions for other "customizing character" variants which you reference: they are (1) established only at character creation, and (2) come only by discarding other abilities, feats, or skills.

Hint... swapping the ride skill out for "intimidate" skill for a fighter is not really losing anything. The trait you are swapping out almost BY DEFINITION is one you did not intend to use with that character.

Researching original spells falls very much outside that category, in that some players (apparently) see it as a loophole by which they can add yet more features on a weekly basis, and never give up anything in exchange for it.

In my experience, the above statement is a clear case of hyperbole.

First off though, you and i have one glaring difference in our perspectives.

You seem to see having for instance 30 spells on the class spell list as more powerful than having 20 spells on the class spell list. As such adding a new spell to you seems to be put in the same framework as actually gaining a new known spell.

i don't.

In my experience, most casters use less than 20% of the spells on the list. In my experience wizards learn ay most ever (into their spellbooks) at most 50% and frequently much less.

A spell you dont knwo is not a power boost.

A spell you know, whether by research or by finding a scroll, is replacing another spell you could have known.

What matters for power gauging is "I know 10 balancedspells" vs "i know 20 balanced spells" not whether or not they came from PHB, BoEM, TnB, MoF, from the GM's devilish mind or the player's angelic innovations!

If a fighter player pre-E&A asked for a "Ac to to-hit" feat akin to expertise in reverse, would he be MORE POWERFUL if i added the feat to the game but his character did not have it yet? Does the character actually beat more monsters based on the fact that later on he might be able to take a feat he couldn't before?

NO.

He gets more powerful only after the feat is selected and in play.

Now, sure, months later the feat is published and becomes official. Do the enemy fighters who never took the feat now become deadlier adversaries because the list of "feast i did not take" is now larger?

That is where we differ. At its core, since neither of us is likely to change that perspective. we cannot thus reach an agreement, except to disagree.

IMO, increasing the list of "feats i haven't take, skills i haven't known, and spells i haven't learned" is not a power up for the character in question.

IMO, increasing the list of "feats i have taken, skills i have , and spells i know" are all power ups but as long as the individual elements remain balanced no more than if "standard" spells were taken...

This of course assumes the book spells are balanced which we know is untrue.

Researching original spells does more than merely add another spell to the spellbook: it also expands the class spell list. That's an increase in power beyond that of choosing from any DM-established list of options. In exchange for that flexibility, the PC must give up a good sum of money, and only in that way is the open-ended spell-list-expansion capability balanced.

See above.

Expanding the class spell list is to me "expanding the list of spells i dont know" if the spell is not added to the character's spell's known.

Thats not a significant power up, IMO.

We disagree and will continue to do so.

 

[Petrosian]

Regarding counterspelling and custom spells...

The only time i have seen counterspelling used by PCs it has always been "offensive counterspelling" as in "ready to hit him with this damaging effect or obscuring effect when he begins to cast"

My players have never seen it better to hope the opposing caster chooses the spells they have so they can stop a cast that way rather than to force a very difficult concentration check AND do damage at the same time, especially since their chance at a spellcraft check is not much better than the concentration check he will need if he takes damage.

So all in all, the impact a dozen or so custom spells would have on counterspelling is non-existent.

 

[Merlion]

I apreciate your input Petrosian. your saying the same things I was but your often able to put them somewhat better. my thinking on thease things is very intuitive and some times diffacult to word well.

 

[melkoriii]

Note two important things about all the suggestions for other "customizing character" variants which you reference: they are (1) established only at character creation, and (2) come only by discarding other abilities, feats, or skills. Researching original spells falls very much outside that category, in that some players (apparently) see it as a loophole by which they can add yet more features on a weekly basis, and never give up anything in exchange for it.

Researching original spells does more than merely add another spell to the spellbook: it also expands the class spell list. That's an increase in power beyond that of choosing from any DM-established list of options. In exchange for that flexibility, the PC must give up a good sum of money, and only in that way is the open-ended spell-list-expansion capability balanced.

I agree with dcollins here.

Also

D&D is about choices. By adding more spells to the Wizard’s spell list, expectably custom spells, you are giving them easier choices.

Do I take fireball or Lighting Bolt?
I know I will make a spell that does one or the other, my pick, but balance it with some component that cost money and shorten the range to Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level). (Its balanced)

Do I take Levitate or Rope Trick?
I know I will make a spell that is like Rope Trick but allows me to move it at Levitate speed. Ill balance it by lowering the duration to minutes and lower the number of ppl that it can hold from 8 to 4. (Its balanced)


With out the high cost and the time needed to research spells. The class gets a lot of advantages over another casting class.

You need deterrents so that the player has to actually think to him/her self “Do I really want to make this choice?”
It should NOT be a no brainier

 

[Merlion]

I agree with dcollins here.

Also

D&D is about choices. By adding more spells to the Wizard’s spell list, expectably custom spells, you are giving them easier choices.

Do I take fireball or Lighting Bolt?
I know I will make a spell that does one or the other, my pick, but balance it with some component that cost money and shorten the range to Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level). (Its balanced)

Do I take Levitate or Rope Trick?
I know I will make a spell that is like Rope Trick but allows me to move it at Levitate speed. Ill balance it by lowering the duration to minutes and lower the number of ppl that it can hold from 8 to 4. (Its balanced)


With out the high cost and the time needed to research spells. The class gets a lot of advantages over another casting class.

You need deterrents so that the player has to actually think to him/her self “Do I really want to make this choice?”
It should NOT be a no brainier

As has already been stated a balanced spell gives the same boost to a spellcaster regardless of where it comes from. and "adding to the wizard spell list" really has only RP type benefits.
As for choices...its already a no-brainer. if you want a spell that does something not covered by an existing spell you research/create a new one. the problem is with the printed cost your probably not going to especialy if your low to mid level, because you dont have enough money. I have no problem with the time requirement. The only benefits you get from creating your own spell that you dont get from just learning one that already exists are primarily roleplaying type benefits. the time cost is a roleplaying type cost. the 1k/gp per level is a mechnical cost, and a pretty steep one especialy for characters below level 10 or so, for which you get little to no mechnical benefit. it was put their to discourage research to keep DMs from having to evaulate new spells. I dont believe you should have to pay mechnical costs for RP benefits.