Why don't more people play high level campaigns? 13th+

[Kae'Yoss]

I don't see it. Some of the best campaigns I played in ran to high (or even epic) levels, and those high/epic parts were the best parts of all.

For me, it is just because it takes so darn long to get there.

Speed up character advancement.

It's how we often play: Fast character advancement. That way we can run a whole campaign from 1-20 (or beyond) relatively fast. Fast enough for the players not to lose interest.

Sometimes we also start high.

Easy... we still play 2E. Those problems were all introduced with 3E.

Yeah right. I know that I remember 2e as a game you just couldn't play at higher levels, because things were too messed-up. I didn't play it too much, personally, but I know a lot of people who played it a lot, and among the things they say they like much better about 3e, high levels actually being playable is always way up the list.


We never had problems with slow combat, huge NPC descriptions or NPC generation times of several hours, either. Maybe we're just fast thinkers


But really, do you actually take 4 hours to make a high-level NPC? I think I must start giving classes, because I can whip them up in no time: Coming up with the concept is almost more difficult than putting it into stats. Determine class/level Asign ability scores, buy equipment (mostly standard gear, with a couple of strange items thrown in), choose skills/feats/spells (without min/maxing the hell out of it all), and calculating HP, Attacks, AC, Saves. Doesn't take that long, really.

I also often make standard enemies (with some variations) or "borrow" stats from books, adventures, and the like.

 

[jasin]

Notice that I didn't say the party, only my character. Round per round our damage our was pretty equivalent. However, I could never overcome any of the creatures DR as we got higher in level.

What were the DRs in question? Holy (which is worth the money for just the +2d6) + cold iron (which is just 2,000 gp extra) + a couple of bottles of silversheen take care of almost all high level DRs, except constructs.

 

[jasin]

Naw, in 1e a Fighter could use a Wand of Fireballs!
He couldn't use a Staff of the Magi or a Wand of Fire, but many of what are now Wizard-only items were usable by any class.

Never knew that.

Edit: Also, in 1e a Fighter-10 would often have +4 and +5 gear (at least +3), and was relatively much better equipped vs the Magic-User than now.

That's an issue of treasure distribution within the game, which is independent of edition, isn't it? For example, in 3E, you could easily have the fighter much better equipped than the wizard. Just have the fighter use 75% of the treasure, and the wizard 25%, rather than spliting evenly.

 

[bowbe]

The High Level Conundrum

I run a pretty high level game, and my characters have piles of high level power and high level loot.

I know I've mentioned before that I still have no problem challenging high level characters. (tho my under 100 posts in 5 years means few people recognize me as a "name" on EnWorld).

Admittedly there are some issues that many of the above posters have addressed for their dislike or "system breakdowns" that may occur when running or participating in a high level campaign. These appear to more or less be as follows.

1. Changes from "gritty realism to goofy super-hero adventure". Good point, but even in high fantasy fiction this is often the case. Take David Eddings "Belgariad" the kid goes from being a country bumpkin to basically the avatar of good by the 5th book and is able to take on a deity that is the embodiment of the evil avatar. Elric of Melnibone kills the universe with the help of blackrazor......er Stormbringer. You get the idea. If you dont... get some of those sorts of novels and delve for ideas. Buy some pre-packaged materials and mine those for ideas. SCAP, Rappan Athuk, and any number of the DCCs written for high levels should have just the sort of ideas to help you out of your home brew miasma.

2. Only magic that works is "save or die" other magic becomes problematic for the DM. Here here... or not.

I admit that initially with high level 3ed campaign running I had some issues with the constant magical get out of jail free card, and have adapted to create solutions for myself that work. Magic IS poblematic at high level, but to successfully DM a high level campaign you have to use those "cheats" and tweaks against the party as often as they use it against the GM. IF PC clerics can burn turning checks to hasten their spell casting without having the other meta magic feats for quickened casting and the like... the NPCs get those too, as a standard rule. Big barbarians and fighters dealing too much damage? A few quickened castings of good ol ray of enfeeblement and range touch feats do the trick. At higher levels you can do the same with harm spells.

3. Statting NPCs can take forever. Absolutely Bleeping correct! This is a huge pain in the tookus. Again if this is the home brew issue... pick up some pre packaged materials. Download some whatever. If you dispise dungeon crawls thats fine, it doesnt mean that the stat blocks or whatever from pre packaged dungeons wouldnt fill the bill with a number of NPC villians with generally the right feats, abilities, spells selected and the like to do the work for you so you dont have to.

4. Hard to challenge vs. Too challenging. Striking the right balance is tough, but if you know your party and its general tactics, the personalities of the characters and their desires you should be able to nurture their RP side quite a bit more once they reach the upper levels. Put them on missions that reflect their desire as characters. At higher level they reach what I think of as "Responsibility level". They are likely as powerful or more powerful than state and local governments and could if they chose to kill/maim/slaughter entire cities (as they should be able to. At this level though they are faced with responsibility (or should be).

 

[hong]

3. Statting NPCs can take forever. Absolutely Bleeping correct! This is a huge pain in the tookus. Again if this is the home brew issue... pick up some pre packaged materials. Download some whatever. If you dispise dungeon crawls thats fine, it doesnt mean that the stat blocks or whatever from pre packaged dungeons wouldnt fill the bill with a number of NPC villians with generally the right feats, abilities, spells selected and the like to do the work for you so you dont have to.

Ooh, ooh, I get to pimp my stuff. I am so out of practice. Check out the D&D villain classes below.

Swift assassin

Darkmage

Armoured reaver

 

[bowbe]

Part 2

5. It takes too long to get high level. Um.. we are talking 3ed D&D right? It may be considered rude to laugh here so I wont, because I don't know what sort of games people play, or the frequency that they play them. Playing regularly (1-2 times a week) we had a party make it to 11th level with a few casualties along the way in about a year. If your a GM interested in getting characters to high level but require that they start at 1st the best bet is to always give them challenges that are a bit tougher than they are and avoid the tried and failed method of 4 encounters per session. 1 tough encounter is worth more experience points and girds PCs for high level play where the 4 encounter per session matrix is simply out the door.

6. Combat takes too long. Again, yes and no. See above. We have combats amongst 20-21 level PCs and monsters of appropriate or higher challenge level that may last all night (this is true) but we also have combats that last only 3-4 rounds that have the same results. My solution has been to incorporate a bit more problem solving, a lot more RP and a lot fewer combats (if the PCs are smart). A good trick is to know what your going to do well before combat begins.

7. Teleporting in and out of combat, bla bla blah. Design better dungeons and lairs if this is the case, shield against it. Use Forbiddance. Use areas where there is silence in effect to all but the faithful of the demonlord/deity. Do what a friend of mine does, and add candelabras of those candles that deny healing in said unholy place to all but the faithful. Make them think before they act and punish them if they don’t (until they do). If your worried about “screw the player” spells it may be time for the players to grow up a bit. Or time for the GM to find new players to replace the ones that gripe about that sort of thing. Trolls are “screw your players” monsters at lower level by that analogy. Orcs with class levels are also screw your player monsters, so are goblins with long-spears. Any argument can be made where some things just arent fair. If you take the thought that something isnt fair out of your vocabulary and assume that High Adventure involves High level challenges and higher order thinking skills to overcome, everyone will be happier.

 

[bowbe]

Part 3: What to Doobee doo bee do?

What can you do to make an enjoyable game of high level play?

Its time to engage players in their campaign setting/world/universe. The story gets broader and grander at this point or should. I've felt since my first read thru of 3.0 phb and dmg that a good chunk of heart was missing from the game, as my very first D&D campaign went to about 14th-16th level back when I was in middle school /high school. I know that typically when you refer to anything "oldschool" most people dont know what that means or get their hackles all up.

They assume it means kick down the door kill and loot, but thats only half the story. I think the whole cohort thing was poorly managed for 3.x ed. In AD$D players had responsibilities. They became leaders, rulers, and gathered followers who were weak and low level that siphoned off cash from their ready reserves. These followers also created a connectedness to the game world. They created role play opportunities.

I say do not believe when people tell you that forcing cohorts and such onto PCs is "unfair" to the players, or depletes their magic items or ability to buy "cool buff stuff". Hogwash. Its the cycle of the warrior hero that they attract fame and celebrity as well as danger not just to themselves but also to those that they are responsible to or care for. Its much harder to throw out those instant death spells against enemies when there are innocent civilians or cared for cohorts held hostage in the midst of fiends and villians.

At high level, its time to start making allies. Its time to get into the grand universal scope. Powers of light and dark, forces of good and evil and so on. NPCs need not always be enemies or weak followers. They very well could be powerful allies with even more powerful enemies. Alliances of foes with broader agendas than simply "kill the villagers and put their heads on spikes". The monsters in the various monster manuals are not there just as foes as one would think. Many make good allies (not slaves) that think for themselves and have their own rich motivations.

A 2nd thing that 3x missed the boat on when it comes to high level games is the DMG's descriptions of relics. Relics descriptions, abilities and powers were better off left to chance with a few suggested things that the relics ordinarily do. I personally liked relics that covered you in warts, gave you a funny smell, or had a chance of ripping apart the space time continuum. That’s high level adventure all the way. Dead is just another level to adventure through in the case of a TPK.

We had a guy blow his draws from a deck of many things about 3 months ago and was irrevocably destroyed in the process (drew dunjon, drew the fool). But was he? No. I brought his PC back as an NPC thrall to a great nemesis of the PCs. They had a chance to free him from the nemesis and get the PC back. Of course they let a titan pummel him into mulch instead, but with the body they could have quested for the soul. Not a Lawful good member in the whole group tho but it COULD have happened and would have been a great PC created story arc to follow up on.

My best suggestion for running high level, is to go pick yourself up a copy of the original AD&D PHB and DMG and actually read them. Don't read them for game mechanics or ways to min-max a dwarf. Read them for the followers, hirelings and cohorts. Read the DMG for its relics charts and get a feel for what Old School was really about before throwing down the diss on it. Read it for its rich descriptions vs. the more mechanics laced soul-less mathematical information in current tomes.

Cheers

Case

 

[howandwhy99]

I believe part of the reason is the amount of work required of the DM.

Also, I think it has to do with high level campaigns being far more setting specific than low to mid level games. It's harder to formulate these kinds of games as the structure of the adventures are based on the assumptions of the worlds themselves. Some games will focus on conquering by amassing great power and armies. Or maybe the players want to rule and invest in changing the make up of the world. This expansion over continents and worlds is pretty standard, but so is exploring other planes and dimensions of reality. Other folks like to create Elminister and Circle of Eight-like characters or parties - working behind the scenes of a world as directors or guardians. Still others may prefer questing for world shattering artifacts or to discover all the secrets of history. Adventures are almost never site-based and tend to be more administrative.

Another reason is the learning curve players need to play at high level. This includes not only knowing the rules for all their character powers, but how best to use all those numerous powers in conjuction with their own and others' powers. Add to this is the player knowledge of the world necessary to portray world leader characters and the amount of prep by just players is almost too much to deal with. By playing low and mid level adventures in the same world the players traditionally learn about all the various aspects of the world. Jumping in cold and attempting to enjoyably play a world shaking character without any actual personal knowledge of that world is much, much harder.

 

[Shade]

I love high level games.

Most of my campaigns go higher then that, but from watching other DMs who don't I just think they are not prepared or ready for it. It is easier to stop a campaign before high levels then it is to DM a campaign of high levels. People usually take the easy way out.

Agreed. The most frequently posted reasons on this and other boards seem to be easily summarized as "it's too much work".

Hmmm... maybe I'm alone in liking doing statblocks. Sure it takes a while, but heck, I liked making dozens of backup PCs when I was a player, too.

Same here.

Maybe it has something to do with the game breaking down almost completely past 12th level...

I hear this a lot of the boards but no one ever seems to want to explain what that actually means.

Most of the reasons I've seen aren't really "game breakers" but more of "I don't like having to work around this" things, like frequent teleportation, high-level divinations, and ease of coming back to life. I think many could argue that the game breaks as soon as a PC can fly. And that happens way before high levels.

 

[robberbaron]

I have run a 3.5 campaign for about 3 years now (approx. 20 sessions per year x 6 to 7 hours per session = about 400 hours of play) and the party has gone from 1st to 12th/13th, with a few deaths and character changes along the way.

It is getting hard to dream up things for them to do; they can travel great distances in the blink of an eye, destroy armies, lay waste to a town - why would they take an offered mission?

Gold? OK, they always want more gold, but I baulk at offering vast sums of money as I still have one eye on the 'world'.
Items? Sure, but they are most likely to sell them and we are back to the same problem.
Revenge? Best one so far, though they don't leave that many foes alive.

Previously, I ran a 1e game for 15 years, going from 1st to 20th+ (though you can't really compare like for like with 3.5) and they were saving the world every week.


On the up side, I use DMGenie and I find it really easy to create and equip even a large group of foes.

Just wish my imagination could keep up with the players' power.

Oh, and I usually have a selection of several backup characters when I am playing. I love creating characters. Just strange I guess.