Why don't you buy non-WoTC stuff?

[rounser]

Nope, have to side with Buttercup and the others going for "no-names" here....if you're serious about creating a city that can be dropped into any campaign without flavour difficulties, the name has to go...the name is strong flavour, and it's annoying to be reminded of it when you're trying to pretend it's Hardby or something.

Again, naming is a fun task that both DMs and designers love to do. Leave it to the DMs, let them have their fun. It reminds me of a campaign when the DM attempted to name our characters for us. We let him pregenerate them, but leave the names alone!

As a rule, I feel it's better, even in "generic" products, to use specific names. Better to say "Thorbald the Blacksmith," rather than "Blacksmith #1." It reads better, gets the reader more into the milieu, and should not be any trouble for a GM to replace the name if it's necessary. (GM campaign notes read: "Balthurin the Blacksmith: use stats for Thorbald, from book X, page Y.")

Naming NPCs is fair enough, but I do have a comment on one of your other comments.

If you're presenting a DM tool rather than pushing a new city setting, the DM probably wants to remain divorced from your milieu - he or she is using your city in an existing setting. Your city is extras and backstage, not centre stage...at least, that's the philosophy that I'd expect from DM-friendly "generic" products...they are built as tools that will fit with existing flavour, not overwrite it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Will the real Upper Krust please stand up

Hi rounser mate!

But you're posting as Upper_Krust...?

Just to clarify. While I (U_K) was staying at S'mon's house for GenconUK I logged on as U_K on his computer and he couldn't find the logout button. Hence the temporary confusion.

 

[rounser]

Fair enough, it just seemed a bit weird at the time to have a post from Upper_Krust referring to Upper_Krust in third person.

 

[Buttercup]

C'mon! Can't you just turn the map around? One "large city on one side of a river" could both of your cities as well as the east and west cities.

Joe Mucchiello
Throwing Dice Games
http://www.throwingdice.com

Yeah, that's true. But what if I have several cities on rivers in my campaign? Really, what I want is lots of cities in various terrains. Like I said above, I'm not sure it's possible to have too many city/town/village choices.

 

[Ace]

Re: Re: Re: Why don't you buy non-WoTC stuff?

Ok so what about Bluffside a 144 page city book made for any d20 medium magic campaign, a lot of us have generic offerings as well as specific, so I was looking for ideas on how to inform you that we have all of this good stuff with a lot that can be immediately used in homebrew campaigns.

Speaking for myself I have enough city stuff myself and I run a high magic game. I did think Bluffside was pretty good when I looked at it however it just wasn't something I needed.

I think one reason folks avoid non WOTC is stuff is the "canonality' bug. Basically most anything WOTC is OK in most games but there are lots of other D20 stuff thats banned/ overpowered/cruddy out there.

I certainly wouldn't put Bluffside on that list, mind...

IME DM's are very reluctant to allow new cruchy stuff the haven't checked out (and most don't have time or money to buy them all and sort them out) and players don't buy as many splatts.
After all many GM's won't allow the stuff so thats $ used that could be used elsewhere

Now World stuff is of mixed utility as a lot of us are homebrewers and our homebrews are just as good as the professional stuff for our needs.
Generic world plugins are a great idea but most of them aren't generic enough, YMMV.

Its a bad situation all around. The key is (IMO) to grab a fan base and run with it. Most gamers will support 1 or 2 companies and dabble in a few others. If you can get those guys hooked on your stuff you will do well. The trick is getting the first bite.

A good web preview helps, a good review (an honest one please) will help but beyond that I really don't know.
My FLGS had a copy but I don't think anyone wanted it and it was finaly put on the half price table. Thats the Kiss of Death for a product, once on that tableodds are nothing will be reordered from that company except on special order.
If its not on the shelf no one sees it, no one sees it, it never sells.

AS for whats coming out JMO but how many horror setting do we need or elf splatts or... do we need? You get the picture. There are like ten or more critter books out now and countless spells and feats and PRC's and class varients and...

Speaking for myself as an occasional player and DM most of that stuff is useless to me. My players aren't going to use it-- They prefer the tried and true and I am not going to use it either. It just becomes well, clutter.

The best rule of thumb for cruchy bits is either #1 It has to be used in a game or #2 fun to read
otherwise its a waste of space and $ that could be used elsewhere

A group will use 1 Elf splatt maybe. For the record our groups won't use any in 1 all of the characters are human (and none plays including em plays much of anything else) in the 2nd I know (but am not in)-- well its a carry over game from 2e and the DM dislikes 3e in a generally vague way

In my situation I play once every two weeks (I could play 1 a week if I wanted) and just don't have the need for more spells and cruchy bits. For world stuff I have a world I like already. I just don't need another. I have a gig of files on my system and so have no need of more books in the near future

I think my saturation situation is pretty common and most groups just settle the problem by limiting purchases to WOTC and a company or two

Let me ask a question though Hal...

Is the question you are really asking "Why aren't The Hunt Bluffside selling better"?

If it is I wish I could tell you. For myself The Hunt just didn't click with me, sorry. As for Bluffside I wish it was for GURPS-- my prefered system. I no I am not going to convert

 

[Nightfall]

All this proves is that gamers are just too darn picky! At least in my view. I'd use Bluffside in a heartbeat. Hell I'm seriously considering it AFTER I run my Hollowfaust Campaign.

 

[MEG Hal]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Why don't you buy non-WoTC stuff?

Let me ask a question though Hal...

Is the question you are really asking "Why aren't The Hunt Bluffside selling better"?

If it is I wish I could tell you. For myself The Hunt just didn't click with me, sorry. As for Bluffside I wish it was for GURPS-- my prefered system. I no I am not going to convert

Not asking that, I have been fortubate that all of our products are doing well, of course you always want to do better, but my question was---why aren't more people buying non-WoTC because I see a lot of posters here state we only use WoTC stuff and I know that is only a small area of the market, we are looking for ways to inform retailers and customers who do not know d20 exists. I was lookng for people's opnions of why aren't people buying more non-WoTC , know if the decision was to try a MEG product, I would not complain

 

[Gyoza sausage bun]

Speaking for myself, I think the reason I am resistant to non-WOTC product is the show-off factor.

WOTC were very clever in putting in an official point buy system and PC expected wealth tables. In previous editions when you showed people your powerful character they could just say you had an easy DM. In 3E you can tell people, look at my 25 pt character with less than expected wealth but still really powerful. Aren't I a great player!

3rd party stuff is less well known so harder to show off with and its also easier to dismiss as unbalanced. And homebrew is completely useless.

Its a regrettable tendency of mine but I recognise it in my friends as well. One day someone will let me play in a game where we all start as 15 pt. commoners and nothing but the core rules so that I can get this out of my system.