D&D General Why Exploration Is the Worst Pillar

[Mort]

It's strange. D&D from 3rd edition and earlier seemed to be ok with characters dying from bad decisions like the example you posted, even in standard encounters. In 4e I never saw it happen. In 5e it has only happened at 1st level.
The game is certainly less thrilling during combat as a result. Anyone can survive a standard encounter.
This easy level means there's little reason to explore to avoid encounters, find new tools and information to defeat them (plus you don't need magic item rewards anymore). Just walk up to an encounter, auto win - that's my experience with 5e. (PF2 is largely the same way, unless it's a TPK.)

It sounds like you need to be drastically increasing the level of your encounters?

Or put in secondary challenges within the encounters to increase both the challenge and interest /fun level.

 

[Fanaelialae]

It's strange. D&D from 3rd edition and earlier seemed to be ok with characters dying from bad decisions like the example you posted, even in standard encounters. In 4e I never saw it happen. In 5e it has only happened at 1st level.
The game is certainly less thrilling during combat as a result. Anyone can survive a standard encounter.
This easy level means there's little reason to explore to avoid encounters, find new tools and information to defeat them (plus you don't need magic item rewards anymore). Just walk up to an encounter, auto win - that's my experience with 5e. (PF2 is largely the same way, unless it's a TPK.)

I've seen characters die, even at higher levels, in 5e. I've had a few of my own characters die. Like my paladin, who was around 6th or 7th level when he was ripped apart by gnolls.

 

[Eubani]

Giant Spiders really punch above their CR, but haven't hey always.

 

[Mort]

Throw some intellect devourers at a level 2-4 party. See how "easy" that goes!

 

[Hussar]

There are plenty of concrete tools for navigating exploration

But, when I point to them, you tell me that players never use them. So, which is it? Are there plenty of concrete tools or not?

See, I agree that exploration should be a major element of the game. That's not my issue. My issue is that there are a shopping list of "concrete tools" at the players disposal, many of which completely bypass exploration challenges. And the higher the level of the party, the more resources they have and the more powerful those resources too. To the point where exploration is largely trivial.

 

[Aldarc]

Of course they do, and I said it's dependent upon the Dungeon Master to recognize that the players don't want to jump through all of his hoops. If they want combat, give it to them. It has not been my experience that DMs are insistent upon what they want at the expense of what the players want. -- That's what I said.

Please tell me how I was suppose to get all of that in bold out of your earlier comment?

I think this is all very dependent upon the Dungeon Master. This has not been my experience.

Oy.

I think it's important to recognize the heavy lifting "should" was doing in your argument there and how that may not pan out in typical game play or praxis, particularly when we talk about the styles of games that 5e cultivates and/or gravitates toward (e.g., traditional and neo-traditional play).

I don't really understand this. There are plenty of concrete tools for navigating exploration and social interaction. What are you saying, exactly? The DM decides to put monsters in front of you, the DM decides to put a difficult task in front of you, the DM decides to put a hostile NPC in front of you... what is it that the DM is deciding that challenges your agency as a player? How exactly are DCs, NPC attitudes, etc, etc, etc, not concrete?

Who decides the NPCs' attitude? Who decides whether the PCs roleplay the right way or say "the magic words" in a manner that can persuade the NPC? Who decides whether the PCs auto-pass, auto-fail, or require a roll? Who decides the check? Who decides the DC? Who decides and narrates the results of a check? Or even what a PC can or can't know may require GM permission.

I'm saying that the gamut of what transpires in the social and exploration pillar is "dependent on the GM" as you like to remind us and can vary more wildly than generally is the case with combat. Some GMs here strongly dislike social skills and require "good roleplay." Likewise some GMs, particularly of the OSR persuasion, require that the PCs describe every meticulous detail of exploration without relying on skill checks to find the trap or hidden door.

The DMG reminds us that the combat pillar is more structured, and there are easily far more player-facing abilities and options regarding combat than the other pillars. This gives players more structured and concrete ways to affect the fiction.

And what does this "agency of the player" [CUT] have to do with exploration? We're drifting away from the thread topic.

Quite a bit actually. We have been talking about which pillars of play 5e typically emphasizes (e.g., combat, exploration, social) and why that is the case, player-facing tools that let players bypass certain pillars, as well as "scripts." Player agency plays a role in all of this. Or to go back to my earlier point in this thread: when players are given a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

(something I've literally never heard in all my years of gaming at an actual table)

Does unfamiliarity with terminology or jargon somehow invalidate it?

 

[Hussar]

Throw some intellect devourers at a level 2-4 party. See how "easy" that goes!

Giants work REALLY well here.

But, that's a good example for me actually. I played the Storm King's Thunder series of adventures. Some very cool places. Sure. But, I played a Forge Priest. Every short rest, I can create a 100gp value item. Need a key? No problem. Poof. Oh, and because I was a Forge Priest, I got all sorts of exploration bypassing spells. Fabricate is fantastic.

Like I said, I'm not against exploration. I think exploration is a barrel of fun. My issue is that the game gives the players SO MANY ways to shortcut exploration that you just don't see in the other two pillars. Sure, you could Charm Person your way through a social encounter, but, that's risky - the other person could make their saving throw, and, once the charm wears off, you just made an enemy. There's no real risk in Purify Food and Drink or a Light spell.

There's a shopping list of exploration short circuiting spells and abilities at every single level of the game. The higher level you get, the more ways you have.

 

[Fanaelialae]

But, when I point to them, you tell me that players never use them. So, which is it? Are there plenty of concrete tools or not?

See, I agree that exploration should be a major element of the game. That's not my issue. My issue is that there are a shopping list of "concrete tools" at the players disposal, many of which completely bypass exploration challenges. And the higher the level of the party, the more resources they have and the more powerful those resources too. To the point where exploration is largely trivial.

That's just generally true of D&D. The higher level you are, the more tools you potentially have access to that entirely bypass certain challenges, be they exploration, combat, or social.

If players have those tools and leverage them, then good on them. You can still create challenges that aren't circumvented by those tools (contrary to popular white room theorycrafting, high level casters don't have all spells prepared at all times). You can also create exploration encounters that aren't designed to be challenges, such as those meant to evoke curiosity and wonder.

 

[Hussar]

That's just generally true of D&D. The higher level you are, the more tools you potentially have access to that entirely bypass certain challenges, be they exploration, combat, or social.

If players have those tools and leverage them, then good on them. You can still create challenges that aren't circumvented by those tools (contrary to popular white room theorycrafting, high level casters don't have all spells prepared at all times). You can also create exploration encounters that aren't designed to be challenges, such as those meant to evoke curiosity and wonder.

Huh? Most casters have all their spells ready all the time. By the time I'm high level, I have five or six spells of any given level at any given time as a cleric or wizard. It's not like 3e where you have to memorize each individual spell. And, let's not forget, some classes get their rituals pretty much free.

And, again, let's not forget, that your 5 PC party probably has three or four casters.

It's typically pretty difficult to bypass combat encounters. Possible, true, but, generally not easy. And, it's certainly something that doesn't get easier as you gain levels. Same with social encounters. But exploration? A typical group starts with fifteen different ways to ignore exploration and it only gets worse from there.

I'm sorry, but, "evoke curiosity and wonder" aren't an encounter at all. I'm certainly not a good enough story teller to get people to go "Oh, golly" with my description of some waterfall. If there's no challenge there, why am I even bothering to put it in the game? It's setting dressing. It takes like 30 seconds to describe, is instantly forgotten and the players are left wondering why the DM is wasting their time.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Huh? Most casters have all their spells ready all the time. By the time I'm high level, I have five or six spells of any given level at any given time as a cleric or wizard. It's not like 3e where you have to memorize each individual spell. And, let's not forget, some classes get their rituals pretty much free.

And, again, let's not forget, that your 5 PC party probably has three or four casters.

It's typically pretty difficult to bypass combat encounters. Possible, true, but, generally not easy. And, it's certainly something that doesn't get easier as you gain levels. Same with social encounters. But exploration? A typical group starts with fifteen different ways to ignore exploration and it only gets worse from there.

I'm sorry, but, "evoke curiosity and wonder" aren't an encounter at all. I'm certainly not a good enough story teller to get people to go "Oh, golly" with my description of some waterfall. If there's no challenge there, why am I even bothering to put it in the game? It's setting dressing. It takes like 30 seconds to describe, is instantly forgotten and the players are left wondering why the DM is wasting their time.

I said all spells, not all their spells. All the spells a caster knows/prepares is a small subset of just the spells in the PHB. That 3-4 casters is somewhat misleading, since it's unlikely that a 5 person party has that many full casters.

Forcecage is pretty potent at bypassing combat encounters. Heck, many of the exploration bypassing spells you seem to be complaining about, like Pass Without Trace, are equally good at bypassing combat.

Modify memory is great for social encounters (just give them a memory of agreeing to do what you want). Or you can go the blunt way and just charm/dominate them.

There are lots of spells that allow you to easily beat combat and social encounters as you increase in level.

If your idea of an encounter that evokes curiosity and wonder is a waterfall, then it's no surprise you don't think it can be done effectively.