D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"

[Selvarin]

But that's only a (debatable) point for previous editions. Where are all those high-level NPCs in 5e books, now that a century, two land-altering catastrophes, and a magical plague have passed? As I said previously in the thread (although it's now well buried pages ago), a look-through of the gazetteer of the North in SKT shows that the area is now filled with commoners, nobles, scouts, tribal warriors, and veterans, with only a few more powerful NPCs scattered about (a couple of archmages in Everlund, a random vampire, and some dragons)...

In other words, most of the egregious examples are long dead-and-gone, between the effects of the Spellplague and a century's shift in the timeline. So if you want to put in your own exceptional NPC's--a high-level lord-in-waiting or a rogue wizard--they won't be jostling with anyone else's in all likelihood. Now if they exist you know it's your own doing.

Even with that out of the way there's still the debate over 'commoners' with PC class levels and how many there *should* be in a given population...which is rubbish. the ratio is dependent upon what matters to you and your world. It's just a nerd fight, otherwise.

 

[Satyrn]

I just thought that if you see the stats for a 2 HD Priest that cast spells as a 2nd level Priest that most likely those NPCs are going to be 2nd level Priests. I dont even know if there were rules for creating non-leveled NPCs in ADnD?

There were. I've been researching this since you started questioning me, and I've found it to be (like all things AD&D) a mishmash. NPCs like merchants and farmers were just statblocks, while the more adventurous NPCs could be statted up as leveled character. And then some other NPCs like bandits may just be statblocks or levelled characters.

So I guess I was remembering the merchants and farmers.

 

[Zardnaar]

If one person out of a million is level 18 and then you have twice as many at each lower level, that's a lot more than one in ten with class levels. One in four, roughly. Relevantly for this thread, it's pretty clear that FR doesn't bother to follow that rule, hugely inflating the number of high-level NPCs.

It was not always X2 per level. It started at 1 in 10, ended at 1 in a million and lvl 17 characters were twice as common as level 18.

As I said the problem was people tend to think of populations of millions as a modern day thing but some of the large pre industrial nations and Empire had populations of millions.

France 20-30 million
Ottoman Empire 30 million
Rome 50-120 million (estimates vary)
Byzantium varies but around 10 million after loss of lands to Islam.
China various dynasty, 100-400 million.
UK 1700 5 million
Castille 1492, 4 million
Aragon 1492 1 million
Scotland 1700 1 million

even with 1 in a million being level 18 a lot of nations are going to have at least 1 level 18 character with city states being the exception (Venice population 200k).

D&D demographics Page 22 High Level Campaigns (2E) Per Million

level/number
1 133 120
2 66560
3. 33280
4. 16 640
5. 8320
6. 4 160
7. 2080
8. 1040
9. 512
10. 256
11. 128
12. 64
13.32
14.16
15. 8
16. 4
17. 2
18. 1

Note there is a difference between early 1E and late 2E AD&D. If you apply those numbers above to 1983's World of Greyhawk boxed set it kind of hints how rare high level PCs are as most nations are under 1 million in population and the largest is around 5 million which is comparable to the UK 300 years ago. Greyhawk lacks an equivalent to France or Ottoman Empire.

Personally I think the numbers are still to high and need to be cut in half at least, 20% of the population has class levels. Even in a society where life is harder than modern day you won't have 1 in 5 people being the equivalent of being a trained soldier. Even in WW2 only 1 in 10 were soldiers in the most heavily mobilised countries in the world (Nazi Germany, USSR).

1-2% of the population should have class levels IMHO rising to 5% during wartime and maybe 10% for exceptional times and places. Even Sparta you only had around 2-3% of the population being "Spartans".

 

[Demetrios1453]

It was not always X2 per level. It started at 1 in 10, ended at 1 in a million and lvl 17 characters were twice as common as level 18.

As I said the problem was people tend to think of populations of millions as a modern day thing but some of the large pre industrial nations and Empire had populations of millions.

France 20-30 million
Ottoman Empire 30 million
Rome 50-120 million (estimates vary)
Byzantium varies but around 10 million after loss of lands to Islam.
China various dynasty, 100-400 million.
UK 1700 5 million
Castille 1492, 4 million
Aragon 1492 1 million
Scotland 1700 1 million

even with 1 in a million being level 18 a lot of nations are going to have at least 1 level 18 character with city states being the exception (Venice population 200k).

D&D demographics Page 22 High Level Campaigns (2E) Per Million

level/number
1 133 120
2 66560
3. 33280
4. 16 640
5. 8320
6. 4 160
7. 2080
8. 1040
9. 512
10. 256
11. 128
12. 64
13.32
14.16
15. 8
16. 4
17. 2
18. 1

Note there is a difference between early 1E and late 2E AD&D. If you apply those numbers above to 1983's World of Greyhawk boxed set it kind of hints how rare high level PCs are as most nations are under 1 million in population and the largest is around 5 million which is comparable to the UK 300 years ago. Greyhawk lacks an equivalent to France or Ottoman Empire.

Personally I think the numbers are still to high and need to be cut in half at least, 20% of the population has class levels. Even in a society where life is harder than modern day you won't have 1 in 5 people being the equivalent of being a trained soldier. Even in WW2 only 1 in 10 were soldiers in the most heavily mobilised countries in the world (Nazi Germany, USSR).

1-2% of the population should have class levels IMHO rising to 5% during wartime and maybe 10% for exceptional times and places. Even Sparta you only had around 2-3% of the population being "Spartans".

I would think that even a shrunken Great Kingdom would have France-type numbers before the... unpleasantness.

And while you make a good point about city-states, Venice isn't a particularly good example. That population seems really small given the land it owned; not just the terra firma on the Italian mainland, but its overseas territories as well. After all, Venice owned both Crete for centuries and Cyprus for about a century. A better city-state example would be some of the Imperial Free Cities of the Holy Roman Empire, such as Frankfurt or Hamburg.



Sent from my VS987 using EN World mobile app

 

[billd91]

As a profession?
In the real world, the most common profession is something like 0.1%. Which, in several states, are teachers. Because, let's face it, everyone interacts with multiple teachers in their life (even excluding post-secondary).
Making PC classes 10% of the population means being a wizard is somehow more common than being an elementary school teacher. More people know magic than teach grades 1-6.


This was really a 3e problem, as it codified how often NPCs would have class levels. Moreso than other editions. And it was pretty damn high. Adventurers were common. The Realms and Eberron both ran with that.

And how does that 10% of the population break down into specific classes? What factors would affect that? What is the professional breakdown of the rest of the 90% of the fantasy world population? What's the point of comparing modern, real society's professional demographics when it has specialization of roles unprecedented in human existence, much less compared to a fantasy society with far smaller population and much earlier technological development?

 

[Zardnaar]

I would think that even a shrunken Great Kingdom would have France-type numbers before the... unpleasantness.

And while you make a good point about city-states, Venice isn't a particularly good example. That population seems really small given the land it owned; not just the terra firma on the Italian mainland, but its overseas territories as well. After all, Venice owned both Crete for centuries and Cyprus for about a century. A better city-state example would be some of the Imperial Free Cities of the Holy Roman Empire, such as Frankfurt or Hamburg.



Sent from my VS987 using EN World mobile app

Yeah I know Venice had land outside Venice but the population was still quite low although they also had population in the Italian mainland. Manpower was a big problem for Venice and they had to resort to slaves for the galleys.

The Shrunken Great Kingdom was comparable to the UK or Castille for population. Even FR lacks a France type nation, Cormyr is the closest. Even something like the Polish Commonwealth had around double the Great Kingdoms population and they were very sparsely populated and were on the borderlands so to speak.

 

[Demetrios1453]

Yeah I know Venice had land outside Venice but the population was still quite low although they also had population in the Italian mainland. Manpower was a big problem for Venice and they had to resort to slaves for the galleys.

The Shrunken Great Kingdom was comparable to the UK or Castille for population. Even FR lacks a France type nation, Cormyr is the closest. Even something like the Polish Commonwealth had around double the Great Kingdoms population and they were very sparsely populated and were on the borderlands so to speak.

I'm not at home, so I can't reference my 3e FRCS at the moment, but I imagine, since Cormyr is a relatively small state, that it's well outpaced in population by some of the bigger nations to the south and east. Amn, Tethyr, Calimshan, and Mulhorand at the very least should have populations much larger than Cormyr (Thay is harder to guess since do undead count as population?). Granted, what their 5e populations may be is anyone's guess.

Sent from my VS987 using EN World mobile app

 

[hawkeyefan]

Why are you going on about the Castle Greyhawk module. Nobody, including TSR/WOTC/Hasbro, looks at that as anything but a glitch. The difference between Greyhawk's powerful people is that they were intentionally placed in the background whereas in Forgotten Realms they are in the background, always, and in the foreground too often.

Dude, I mentioned Castle Greyhawk as a setting location in the context that it could easily be moved to another setting entirely. You then pointed out that Castle Greyhawk was an adventure. So I clarified that I meant the actual location and not the crappy module.

But the crappiness of that module is actually a good example of what we're talking about. Just about everyone disregards it. Rightly so.

So can't we do that about other setting elements we don't care for?

Vecna wasn't originally in Greyhawk. His impact on Greyhawk depends on two modules. If you don't use those modules, Vecna is either just some lich in your campaign whose hand and eye are floating around causing trouble or Vecna just isn't used. That changed in 3E... or did it? Was Vecna's listing ever used as inspiration for 3E? I don't know. I didn't care for the illusion of options in 3E. I played BECMI, 1E, 2E, 2.5E, and now 5E. I tried 3E and didn't care for it. However, I am a player now in a Pathfinder game - I prefer AD&D and 5E over Pathfinder but that is what the DM is comfortable with.

So Elminster is in some FR modules, and in your eyes that makes him ever present and inseperable from the setting....but Vecna appears in some Greyhawk modules, and you point out that they can be ignored?

And in 3E, Vecna was a member of the Oerth Pantheon.

 

[Jester David]

And how does that 10% of the population break down into specific classes? What factors would affect that?

That's right in the 3e DMG:

While not the current rule, it probably helped set the bar for percentage of flashed people in the Realms and Eberron. (And there's not anything currently contradicting those numbers.)

What is the professional breakdown of the rest of the 90% of the fantasy world population?

I don't recall seeing that.
There's a few sites that do that. Medieval demographics made easy for one. I believe the hypertext SRD had a simple tool built off that to handle demographics.
Ah, here we go: http://www.d20srd.org/d20/demographics/

What's the point of comparing modern, real society's professional demographics when it has specialization of roles unprecedented in human existence, much less compared to a fantasy society with far smaller population and much earlier technological development?

Comparison for commonality.
Comparing adventurers to teachers tells us NOTHING of the fantasy world's demographics. But it provides a frame of reference. Should knowing an adventure be as common as knowing a teacher? Should having met a wizard be as common as meeting a grade 10 teacher?

If yes, then you don't need to adjust the ratio. The percentage of adventures to commoners is unchanged.
If no, then adventures should be less common than 3e rules assumptions.

 

[Jester David]

I'm not at home, so I can't reference my 3e FRCS at the moment, but I imagine, since Cormyr is a relatively small state, that it's well outpaced in population by some of the bigger nations to the south and east. Amn, Tethyr, Calimshan, and Mulhorand at the very least should have populations much larger than Cormyr (Thay is harder to guess since do undead count as population?). Granted, what their 5e populations may be is anyone's guess.

Sent from my VS987 using EN World mobile app

Cormyr has a population of 1.4 million:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Cormyr
Amn is 2.9 million, Tethyr is 3.7 million, Calimshan and Mulholrand are both 5.3 million.