Why Games Workshop is not a good business

[MongooseMatt]

I have said several times that I do dislike them a lot. Nothing new there.

I am curious with this - what have they actually _done_ to you?

And some act as such.

But have you not been brain-washed too, in the other direction, to dislike GW?

Actually, GW is not the only company out there who does miniatures. There are companies out there, much smaller, selling much better miniatures at similar prices.

Not really. Leaving arguments about Finecast aside for the moment, and looking at the breadth of ranges rather than individual models, GW is pretty much cutting edge. With the technology they are currently using to create most of their ranges, it would be disappointed if that were not the case.

No one else can come close to competing on their quantity or fine quality when it comes to plastics, which now form the bulk of their ranges. I speak as someone who has tried.

And they don't do that by licensing the Warhammer RPGS and board games to Fantasy Flight?

No. Leaving aside that, with even high royalty rates, the revenue from that would be relatively small, it is simply not a market GW wants to be involved with - that is _why_ they licence it out.

To say that they are just a wargames company it's extremely removed from reality.

Unless something has changed in the past couple of years, GW would describe themselves as a miniatures company (it is a subtle distinction, but an important one for GW).

You also mention computer games and the like - all of this gets licensed out and is absolutely not part of GW's core business.

Correct me if I am wrong, but that is not a good business.

It is, for two reasons (leaving aside profitability and the fact they have survived this long, which you should not take lightly for any company in this day and age, particularly one that sells toy soldiers).

First up, you seem to be suggesting that GW owe something to the wider hobby, or community if you will. This is fundamentally misunderstanding GW's approach to the market - or, I should say, _their_ market.

They identified, created and widened their own niche within the gaming hobby (and, specifically, the miniatures/wargaming hobby), and did so well at it, they managed to seperate it from every other company to create their own vertical structure that is extremely resiliant to competition from within the hobby games industry (they are more prone to worry about things like the next gaming console).

Now, if you enjoy playing GW miniatures games, you will find they support the hell out of them - they have shops round the world (and you really are spolit if you are in the UK) where you can drop in to play (or just _chat_ about) their games at any time. Or be shown how to paint. There are competitions and 'hobby' days galore to take part in, they have regular new material posted on their web site, and if you can think of an auxiliary accessory that might enhance your gaming or painting just a tad, you can be pretty sure GW have it available.

Take a look at what they have done with tables and terrain over the past few years. You can now have a table that looks as detailed and varied as anything that appears on the pages of White Dwarf, all built from their plastic kits. No other miniatures company even comes close to doing something like that.

Now, you do, of course, have to pay for access to all of this, and some may say you pay a great deal. But that is a seperate argument. GW's support of their hobby is rock solid.

You mention them not supporting the FFG RPGs and boardgames. That flat ain't their job. FFG have a licence to produce and market those items themselves, and will either do it well, and keep the licence, or not, and lose it (they _are_ doing well, especially in the UK ). But it is absolutely not something GW needs to get involved in and doing so (where they only get a minority percentage of revenue through royalties) makes no decent business sense whatsoever. Shelf space is all important to GW, so what are they going to put on a shelf - a book where they get all the revenue or a book where they get 10-15%?

Reason the Second. And somewhat contra to my first point (which was from GW's point of view).

GW are _fantastic_ for the miniatures hobby. As a miniatures manufacturer myself, I love 'em. Want them to expand and conquer the world. They are brilliant.

GW is very, _very_ good at getting the 12-16 year old boy into their store and on the track (treadmill?) for miniatures. No one on the planet can beat them at that. They take that boy, grab his friends, and train them all up to paint and play miniatures games.

At some point, maybe around 16, maybe around university age, maybe in the late twenties, that boy (young man) starts to wonder 'what else is out there? What other miniatures games are there?'

That is _exactly_ where we, and many other miniatures companies, lurk. There is a constant flow of customers from the GW segment that, in all likliehood, would probably spell the end of many companies if they stopped.

So, all that diversity you see in other miniatures companies? You might well have GW to thank for it. May they never fail, touch wood.

For whatever reason, GW seem to have decided the older age brackets are less attractive. Small companies exist because larger companies concentrate on their strengths and avoid their weak areas. The smaller companies thrive in tjhose niches.



As for what GW should be doing for RPGs... Absolutely nothing at all. Not even on their radar. And no reason why it should be.

 

[Leviatham]

I am curious with this - what have they actually _done_ to you?

Apart from being rude to me a couple of times at their shop in Brighton, nothing really.

There are a lot of companies out there I don't like (like McDonald's and Nestle) and they haven't done anything to me either.

I just don't like them.

But have you not been brain-washed too, in the other direction, to dislike GW?

Err... no. My opinions are my own and based on what I have seen, what I have read and what I have perceived. No one has made me or attempted to make believe or think anything.

Not really. Leaving arguments about Finecast aside for the moment, and looking at the breadth of ranges rather than individual models, GW is pretty much cutting edge. With the technology they are currently using to create most of their ranges, it would be disappointed if that were not the case.

No one else can come close to competing on their quantity or fine quality when it comes to plastics, which now form the bulk of their ranges. I speak as someone who has tried.

I will have to stand down on that one, since I don't have enough technical knowledge to contribute.

I will say though, that when I have handled their miniatures, I have always found them flimsy and not very "solid". I have seen other companies at Salute or Essen (please don't ask me to remember... my memory and I don't have that great a relationship!) that, to my taste, looked and felt better, and at similar prices.

For my money (literally) and in my opinion, those miniatures are better. It is just a matter of perception.

No. Leaving aside that, with even high royalty rates, the revenue from that would be relatively small, it is simply not a market GW wants to be involved with - that is _why_ they licence it out.

Unless something has changed in the past couple of years, GW would describe themselves as a miniatures company (it is a subtle distinction, but an important one for GW).

You also mention computer games and the like - all of this gets licensed out and is absolutely not part of GW's core business.

You hit the nail on the head there. They don't want to get involved in that market other than licensing (which, btw, I see no problems with at all).

My point is that if they did get involved in that market, just by distributing the materials they license, nothing more, they'd be a better business. They could be attracting more people into their shops and, potentially, getting new customers.

It is, for two reasons (leaving aside profitability and the fact they have survived this long, which you should not take lightly for any company in this day and age, particularly one that sells toy soldiers).

On that one, I am with you. That they are managing to increase their revenue is quite an achievement.

First up, you seem to be suggesting that GW owe something to the wider hobby, or community if you will. This is fundamentally misunderstanding GW's approach to the market - or, I should say, _their_ market.

Not sure I'd go as far as to say that they owe anything to the market or the hobby, though I think they gave the hobby a massive blow when they turned White Dwarf into what it is today.

However I would say they are in a fantastic position to actually do something great for the hobby. Position the chose to ignore. That they have chosen not to get involved in any other part of the market is obvious and I am sure they have their reasons. I am not sure I would agree with those reasons, though (but then, I am on a defensive stance already, so not surprising!).

They identified, created and widened their own niche within the gaming hobby (and, specifically, the miniatures/wargaming hobby), and did so well at it, they managed to seperate it from every other company to create their own vertical structure that is extremely resiliant to competition from within the hobby games industry (they are more prone to worry about things like the next gaming console).

Now, if you enjoy playing GW miniatures games, you will find they support the hell out of them - they have shops round the world (and you really are spolit if you are in the UK) where you can drop in to play (or just _chat_ about) their games at any time. Or be shown how to paint. There are competitions and 'hobby' days galore to take part in, they have regular new material posted on their web site, and if you can think of an auxiliary accessory that might enhance your gaming or painting just a tad, you can be pretty sure GW have it available.

I wouldn't argue with that. They have been very successful in creating what they have created. It is also true they have a lot of things going for them if you are a customer. Although I did mention that in my original post, maybe I should have given them more credit where credit is due.

I am not against them, I simply am not with them because I don't feel they do enough. What they do, they do well and I will not deny that.

Take a look at what they have done with tables and terrain over the past few years. You can now have a table that looks as detailed and varied as anything that appears on the pages of White Dwarf, all built from their plastic kits. No other miniatures company even comes close to doing something like that.

Now, you do, of course, have to pay for access to all of this, and some may say you pay a great deal. But that is a seperate argument. GW's support of their hobby is rock solid.

We are still in agreement.

You mention them not supporting the FFG RPGs and boardgames. That flat ain't their job. FFG have a licence to produce and market those items themselves, and will either do it well, and keep the licence, or not, and lose it (they _are_ doing well, especially in the UK ). But it is absolutely not something GW needs to get involved in and doing so (where they only get a minority percentage of revenue through royalties) makes no decent business sense whatsoever. Shelf space is all important to GW, so what are they going to put on a shelf - a book where they get all the revenue or a book where they get 10-15%?

And that is where I start to think they would be better if they did. I realise it is not their job, but I also don't find any reasons why it shouldn't be, while I can find reasons why it should be, the most obvious one is that it would bring people into the shop.

I personally feel that the shelf space used would render benefits in the shape of customers that otherwise wouldn't be there. Although in a different industry (photography) we were put in a position in which, by adding complementary products to the usual photographic stuff, clients would come back for more and different stuff. Yes, we gave up a shop window (we had three) to show miscellaneous instead of cameras, but we sold a huge amount of studio portraits and cameras because of that.

I could be wrong and maybe they have already done this experiment and seen it doesn't work, but I think that variety could be beneficial for them both a company and as business.

Reason the Second. And somewhat contra to my first point (which was from GW's point of view).

GW are _fantastic_ for the miniatures hobby. As a miniatures manufacturer myself, I love 'em. Want them to expand and conquer the world. They are brilliant.

I must agree with that. Again this is my fault for not making clear in the original post that I go think they have some good points and they do some things very well indeed.

GW is very, _very_ good at getting the 12-16 year old boy into their store and on the track (treadmill?) for miniatures. No one on the planet can beat them at that. They take that boy, grab his friends, and train them all up to paint and play miniatures games.

At some point, maybe around 16, maybe around university age, maybe in the late twenties, that boy (young man) starts to wonder 'what else is out there? What other miniatures games are there?'

That is _exactly_ where we, and many other miniatures companies, lurk. There is a constant flow of customers from the GW segment that, in all likliehood, would probably spell the end of many companies if they stopped.

So, all that diversity you see in other miniatures companies? You might well have GW to thank for it. May they never fail, touch wood.

For whatever reason, GW seem to have decided the older age brackets are less attractive. Small companies exist because larger companies concentrate on their strengths and avoid their weak areas. The smaller companies thrive in tjhose niches.

Maybe you are right there. But then, and this is to take the side of some of the ultra-capitalists that have intervened in the past, not because I agree with it - it would also make business sense to target the people who buy your games and take that revenue as well.

Their lack of horizontality is indeed to your advantage, and since I rather support you than them, I do hope it keeps being your advantage in the future, foreseeable or not.

As for what GW should be doing for RPGs... Absolutely nothing at all. Not even on their radar. And no reason why it should be.

And this is where I disagree. From where I stand, it should be because it could provide with two things: new customers on the one hand, and continuity for people who decide that miniatures are not their thing anymore but could be tempted by RPGs.

That they have no need is clear. They make enough money as it is, and they license the products they consider to be brand-promoting which get a chance to do very well. And I am really happy about those products doing well.

My points are about the opportunity they could have to do more things, which would benefit both the industry, the hobby and the hobbyist. With the brand, the infrastructure and the reputation they have, they'd be the perfect platform.

 

[Leviatham]

BTW, thank you very much for contributing to the debate.

I realise this would be a lot more fun in a pub with a beer and having a laugh, but I really appreciate your insight on this one and the sense you talk.

Would be great to discuss this or something else in person sometime.

 

[MongooseMatt]

There are a lot of companies out there I don't like (like McDonald's and Nestle) and they haven't done anything to me either.

I just don't like them.

Well, same here, but I don't actively dislike them, which is what seems to be going on here.

Err... no. My opinions are my own and based on what I have seen, what I have read and what I have perceived. No one has made me or attempted to make believe or think anything.

That's what they want you to think...

I will say though, that when I have handled their miniatures, I have always found them flimsy and not very "solid". I have seen other companies at Salute or Essen (please don't ask me to remember... my memory and I don't have that great a relationship!) that, to my taste, looked and felt better, and at similar prices.

I am surprised to hear you talking about similar prices. GW is generally known for being on the (eye-wateringly) expensive side. Most other minis companies compete with them on price.

My point is that if they did get involved in that market, just by distributing the materials they license, nothing more, they'd be a better business. They could be attracting more people into their shops and, potentially, getting new customers.

That would make no sense for a business.

I'll give you a real-world example. We do not hire a translator to turn one of our books into, say, German, nor do we print such books. We licence them out to a German publisher.

By your rationale, we would be more in touch with the German market and could support German products better if we did - and you would be right. However, we have little to no knowledge of German retailers, German culture (and don't underestimate 'local' knowledge) and if we brought in someone fullt-ime to handle all of that, we flat would not make any money.

Better to hand it off to a German publisher who already has all that infrastructure and knowledge in place.

The same is true for GW and RPGs and boardgames. Yes, they could expand their market but they a) could not do so efficiently and b) would likely affect their core business if they tried.

In years gone by, GW have tried these markets themselves, and found it was not something they were best placed to do. That is why they have licensed out, and it now becomes FFG's responsibility to handle the support.

Not sure I'd go as far as to say that they owe anything to the market or the hobby, though I think they gave the hobby a massive blow when they turned White Dwarf into what it is today.

Ah ha!

There is something very telling about White Dwarf. You look on it as changing and damaging the hobby. But look at it another way.

What has happened to every other British RPG-based magazine that came along after White Dwarf? There was a big, sucking gap in the market there - and yet they all failed.

GW, I suspect, saw the writing on the wall for such magazines and if they had continued with the White Dwarf you remember, it would have failed and now be consigned to history. By turning it into something that drove GW's own products, they were able to create their own vertical market and keep the magazine going.

In short, the ship was already sinking. The damage had already been done to the market, and it could no longer sustain a print magazine.

However I would say they are in a fantastic position to actually do something great for the hobby. Position the chose to ignore. That they have chosen not to get involved in any other part of the market is obvious and I am sure they have their reasons. I am not sure I would agree with those reasons, though (but then, I am on a defensive stance already, so not surprising!).

Well, do they have an obligation to do so? They have built their own market, one they have managed to pretty much isolate from the rest of the hobby, and grown it to a size larger than, say, RPGs alone. They chose their ground and are servicing their customers very, very well.

But again, let's look at this another way. I don't know anything about you, but let us assume you have an IQ north of 160.

Do you not have an obligation to the rest of Mankind to discover the cure for cancer? Figure out practical fusion power or hydrogen fuel cells for cars? Come up with a technical method to stop global warming?

Just what are you doing for the rest of us?

Seriously though, GW's mere presence helps they hobby far more than any attempt to get directly involved in RPGs or boardgames. As I said later, especially in the UK, they are the main gateway into the hobby for the younger generation, and that is _essential_ for its survival. The rest of us running other companies are doing bugger all (or having bugger all effect) to bring in new blood. Not proud of that, but the truth is GW eclipses everyone else's efforts.

I am not against them, I simply am not with them because I don't feel they do enough. What they do, they do well and I will not deny that.

I put it to you (he said, adopting a lawyer's voice) that this isn't the reason at all. I put it to you that the reason you don't much care for GW is that you don'y much care for their actual products. Are you a Warhammer fanatic? A 40k boy? No? Then there is nothing GW is doing that would have the slightest interest

Put another way, BMW could release what is technically the best car in the world. But I wouldn't touch it because their products do not interest me in the slightest.

I could be wrong and maybe they have already done this experiment and seen it doesn't work, but I think that variety could be beneficial for them both a company and as business.

There was indeed a time when you could buy WFRP in their stores. However, it is not difficult to believe that they sold X WFRP books to 10X miniatures box sets. So, what do you put on your shelves for best effect?

Last I heard, GW had about 2,500 employees, and they have an awful lot of shops. That is a frightening amount of fixed costs. In their place, I would would have nothing on my shelves other than things I knew would sell well and if something started failing, kick it in favour for something else.

No business has any other choice, really.

Maybe you are right there. But then, and this is to take the side of some of the ultra-capitalists that have intervened in the past, not because I agree with it - it would also make business sense to target the people who buy your games and take that revenue as well.

They are - and, through licence fees and royalties, they do so for no investment and no risk. It is a perfect arrangement for a company.

Their lack of horizontality is indeed to your advantage, and since I rather support you than them, I do hope it keeps being your advantage in the future, foreseeable or not.

A Call to Arms: Star Fleet is coming to a shop in Brighton very soon.

(Hey, I gotta make a living as well, you know ).

My points are about the opportunity they could have to do more things, which would benefit both the industry, the hobby and the hobbyist. With the brand, the infrastructure and the reputation they have, they'd be the perfect platform.

I hope I have given good reasons for you to think otherwise.

 

[Cor Azer]

Err... no. My opinions are my own and based on what I have seen, what I have read and what I have perceived. No one has made me or attempted to make believe or think anything.

So, why do us fans of GW get painted with one wide, and misaimed, brush?

My point is that if they did get involved in that market, just by distributing the materials they license, nothing more, they'd be a better business. They could be attracting more people into their shops and, potentially, getting new customers.

Better how? Are you suggesting they become a full on RPG retailer? That's decidely not to their strengths.

What new customers would come to a GW store? If a potential player was unfamiliar with GW, why would they think to look there for RPG stuff?

So the end of the line on your suggestion is that they become a full-blown gaming retailer - at a decidely greater cost to them, and potentislly less profit for them, to what? Make mobey for other companies?

However I would say they are in a fantastic position to actually do something great for the hobby. Position the chose to ignore. That they have chosen not to get involved in any other part of the market is obvious and I am sure they have their reasons. I am not sure I would agree with those reasons, though (but then, I am on a defensive stance already, so not surprising!).

Ignore? I can't say if they ignored it. Seems likely they would have evaluated the risk/reward, and determined it wasn't worth their time. But hey, fans still want RPG and video games based on their IP. So, they go the licensing route. Seems rather win-win to me.

And that is where I start to think they would be better if they did. I realise it is not their job, but I also don't find any reasons why it shouldn't be, while I can find reasons why it should be, the most obvious one is that it would bring people into the shop.

Again. What people? At what cost?

I personally feel that the shelf space used would render benefits in the shape of customers that otherwise wouldn't be there. Although in a different industry (photography) we were put in a position in which, by adding complementary products to the usual photographic stuff, clients would come back for more and different stuff. Yes, we gave up a shop window (we had three) to show miscellaneous instead of cameras, but we sold a huge amount of studio portraits and cameras because of that.

Without knowing more about your retail, this is obviously conjecture. But did your company also build and distribute the cameras you sold? That changes things hugely.

Giving up shelf spaces of your own products to sell other people's products costs you twice - you either pay to expand your shop or you lose the space for you own goods (and thus sell less) and you don't make as much money on them.

I could be wrong and maybe they have already done this experiment and seen it doesn't work, but I think that variety could be beneficial for them both a company and as business.

I can't say if the experiment was done, but a close approximation might come back from other gaming stores who stock GW products - what percentafe of people going in for other reasons pick up GW? Not completely accurate, since the game shop might not be pushing it the same as GW would, but then you're effectively asking GW to push other people's stuff as hard as their own. Turn about is fair.

My points are about the opportunity they could have to do more things, which would benefit both the industry, the hobby and the hobbyist. With the brand, the infrastructure and the reputation they have, they'd be the perfect platform.

I'm still not sure what these hypothetical things are that you think they should do, and how they would help the industry.

So far, it seems to amount to "they should sell other people's stuff" with the pay-off being "new customers", but I don't see how them spending extra money to get lower profit items gets them new customers.

Unless you're saying they should produce all these other items. That seems foolish to attempt to be an everything gaming company.

Tangentially related - how'd WotC do with their branded game stores? They were a bit more 'horizontally' focused, no? Sometimes it's good business to let others do the experiments.

 

[Leviatham]

Well, same here, but I don't actively dislike them, which is what seems to be going on here.

Well, no, but then, you are not an opinionated bastard like I am!

That's what they want you to think...

Uhmm... I’ll have to write another article about living a life of being secretly manipulated by a corporation then. Even if I don’t think I am!

I am surprised to hear you talking about similar prices. GW is generally known for being on the (eye-wateringly) expensive side. Most other minis companies compete with them on price.

The ones I can recall, at similar sizes and similar shapes, come to my mind by being similar in price. As in a small percentage change. Having said that, I haven’t really looked into it recently, so things could have changed.

That would make no sense for a business.

I'll give you a real-world example. We do not hire a translator to turn one of our books into, say, German, nor do we print such books. We licence them out to a German publisher.

By your rationale, we would be more in touch with the German market and could support German products better if we did - and you would be right. However, we have little to no knowledge of German retailers, German culture (and don't underestimate 'local' knowledge) and if we brought in someone fullt-ime to handle all of that, we flat would not make any money.

Better to hand it off to a German publisher who already has all that infrastructure and knowledge in place.

The same is true for GW and RPGs and boardgames. Yes, they could expand their market but they a) could not do so efficiently and b) would likely affect their core business if they tried.

In years gone by, GW have tried these markets themselves, and found it was not something they were best placed to do. That is why they have licensed out, and it now becomes FFG's responsibility to handle the support.

There is a difference, though. You don’t have a Mongoose shop in Germany where you sell your miniatures and then fail to sell anything else, even if it carries your brand. GW does exactly that.

I actually think you’re better off with a German publisher. I am Spanish and I understand about cultural differences better than most. If you did everything yourself you’d probably fail. By giving the work to someone who knows the mentality, you’re catering for it. Your talent is in choosing the right publisher in Germany, not in doing the German work yourself.

I would disagree with one thing, though. I used to work for a company as channel manager. We used to do 3D modelling for videogames, movies, etc. I had 13 dealers around Europe. They would handle sales and I would look after them. I’d provide with marketing material, go and visit them and their customers and help with the production of the products that would then be sold to their customers. Before I arrived to the company, the revenue from Europe for the company was around £80 per year. When the company was shut down in Europe in 2001, my turnover was of over £600K per year. Managing and understanding your sales channel and the needs they have can render incredible results.

Ah ha!

There is something very telling about White Dwarf. You look on it as changing and damaging the hobby. But look at it another way.

What has happened to every other British RPG-based magazine that came along after White Dwarf? There was a big, sucking gap in the market there - and yet they all failed.

GW, I suspect, saw the writing on the wall for such magazines and if they had continued with the White Dwarf you remember, it would have failed and now be consigned to history. By turning it into something that drove GW's own products, they were able to create their own vertical market and keep the magazine going.

In short, the ship was already sinking. The damage had already been done to the market, and it could no longer sustain a print magazine.

Don’t think I haven’t considered that angle. I think it is six of one and half a dozen of the other. Maybe they saw the warning signs. By the way they have developed their vertical market, I prefer to believe that they didn’t want to keep going on with anything else and gave it up to concentrate on one thing. After all, if they can continue and then seen the market wasn’t sustaining the magazine as they wanted, they could then turned it into the current WD.

As for the rest of the magazines, I think that was more a matter of applying an editorial model to a niche market that needed a different way to do things. But that’s another story!

Well, do they have an obligation to do so? They have built their own market, one they have managed to pretty much isolate from the rest of the hobby, and grown it to a size larger than, say, RPGs alone. They chose their ground and are servicing their customers very, very well.

But again, let's look at this another way. I don't know anything about you, but let us assume you have an IQ north of 160.

Do you not have an obligation to the rest of Mankind to discover the cure for cancer? Figure out practical fusion power or hydrogen fuel cells for cars? Come up with a technical method to stop global warming?

Just what are you doing for the rest of us?

Seriously though, GW's mere presence helps they hobby far more than any attempt to get directly involved in RPGs or boardgames. As I said later, especially in the UK, they are the main gateway into the hobby for the younger generation, and that is _essential_ for its survival. The rest of us running other companies are doing bugger all (or having bugger all effect) to bring in new blood. Not proud of that, but the truth is GW eclipses everyone else's efforts.

Well, I actually work as a relationships counsellor in my (rather slim) spare time and work with perpetrators of domestic abuse. I do this as a volunteer. I choose to use my talent for people and for abstract and lateral thinking to help others find solutions to their problems and help them see a different perspective that suits them. Maybe it’s not enough, but it’s worth it!

Also, I don’t think they have an obligation per se, but it is something that would endear them to a lot more people than with their current model. Some have argued befor that they have a duty and obligation to their stock holders. Shouldn’t therefore this be consider as part of an obligation to expand the business and do better?

Bit of a stretch, but you know what I mean.

I put it to you (he said, adopting a lawyer's voice) that this isn't the reason at all. I put it to you that the reason you don't much care for GW is that you don'y much care for their actual products. Are you a Warhammer fanatic? A 40k boy? No? Then there is nothing GW is doing that would have the slightest interest

Uhmm... not necessarily. I don’t like Warhammer games. I find them boring. I would gladly, though, get into the model making aspect of the hobby. If I felt I can get enough out of it, I would probably learn how to paint or create scenarios. As it stands, they do nothing to gain or attract that aspect of me.

Put another way, BMW could release what is technically the best car in the world. But I wouldn't touch it because their products do not interest me in the slightest.

Hear hear!!

There was indeed a time when you could buy WFRP in their stores. However, it is not difficult to believe that they sold X WFRP books to 10X miniatures box sets. So, what do you put on your shelves for best effect?

Last I heard, GW had about 2,500 employees, and they have an awful lot of shops. That is a frightening amount of fixed costs. In their place, I would would have nothing on my shelves other than things I knew would sell well and if something started failing, kick it in favour for something else.

No business has any other choice, really.

Possibly, but it is not my experience. I guess we are at a point in our speculation in which we can’t really debate any further because we’re both making assumptions rather than basing things of empirical fact. We’d have to actually provide with more products in the GW shops and see what impact that has before we can take any measures. Alternatively, at the very least we should conduct some rigorous market research. That’s not gonna happen! 

They are - and, through licence fees and royalties, they do so for no investment and no risk. It is a perfect arrangement for a company.

Yep, but not for the consumer. That’s what I care about first.

A Call to Arms: Star Fleet is coming to a shop in Brighton very soon.

(Hey, I gotta make a living as well, you know ).

And I look forward to seeing that.

Well, let me help in a small way. Choose what side of my website you’d like to have and send me a banner of 150x600. You’ll have that advertising space there until the end of the summer. On me.

I hope I have given good reasons for you to think otherwise.

You have indeed given me a lot of food for thought. Have I changed my mind? Not really, though I admit I won’t look at them so harshly in the future.

They still do a lot of other things that make me dislike them, though. Marketing practises, lack of contact with the public, recruitment practises... But please, don’t get me started... I think we’re reaching a rather nice conclusion to this thread!

In any event, as with any aspect of life, I will always think they have room for improvement and chance to become a better business.

 

[Nytmare]

GW tells you how you should paint your minis?

I had always assumed that it was a Games Workshop mandate, but I've been in two GW stores where a person was turned away from a table because his miniatures weren't painted well enough.

I can understand a person who has spent weekends on end agonizing over making their army perfect being reluctant to play against someone who just hit their miniatures with a coat of primer and expects that to be good enough.

In the same vein, I refused to play a game of Bloodbowl against someone who had printed the miniatures they wanted out onto card stock. It's the same as playing a game of magic against someone who has a deck full of proxy cards. Part of the game is buying all the bits and pieces, making them shiny, and showing them off against someone else's shiny bits and pieces.

But these weren't guys with unpainted, or non-GW minis, they were just lousy painters. Neither instance was an event or tournament or anything, just open play. They were chided, told to learn how to paint correctly, and people refused to let them play.

Looking back on it now, I'm guessing it probably wasn't "company" policy, but we were certainly lead to believe that it was.

Besides GW, another example was Wotc's sudden switch from 3.0 to 3.5, which dropped the floor out of the d20 market. These kind of shenanigans are a kick to the junk of brick and mortar stores.

Here in Pittsburgh, the real death blow was when WOTC announced the jump to 4th. Timed almost perfectly with the start of the Christmas sales, 4 game stores closed almost over night, and the survivors have been pretty much struggling ever since.

 

[Ranes]

Don’t think I haven’t considered that angle. I think it is six of one and half a dozen of the other. Maybe they saw the warning signs. By the way they have developed their vertical market, I prefer to believe that they didn’t want to keep going on with anything else and gave it up to concentrate on one thing. After all, if they can continue and then seen the market wasn’t sustaining the magazine as they wanted, they could then turned it into the current WD.

I would think again, if I were you. Matt's assessment is pretty accurate. I should know; I'm the guy who turned WD into what it is today, apparently. It wasn't that the market wasn't sustaining WD. It was that the change enabled GW to concentrate on building its own intellectual properties. And to be fair to you, you've captured something of that intent in the paragraph I've quoted. You've just misjudged the rationale behind it.

I have no comment to make on any other matter. I haven't been associated with GW for over twenty years. I'm glad that they and WD are still around and making their fans happy, though.

By the way, have you seen this?

BBC News - Why are adults still launching tabletop war?

 

[jasper]

um how about this.
McDonalds sells hamburgers, they don't sell Legos, Preschool Toys, Pajamas, etc.
However they do license their images to Lego, Fisher Price (anyone the McDonalds store piece), and to clothing makers. They get cut.
Your arguement seems to me to boil down to McDonalds/GW must stock their stores with everthing with their name on it. And then allow Burger King, Krystal, and Wendys shelf space since they are all in Hamburger industry to promote the Hamburger industry.
change the burgers to rpgs and that appears to be your arguement.
PS Buy stock in the company and go to shareholders meetings and advise them to change their ways.

 

[Leviatham]

I would think again, if I were you. Matt's assessment is pretty accurate. I should know; I'm the guy who turned WD into what it is today, apparently. It wasn't that the market wasn't sustaining WD. It was that the change enabled GW to concentrate on building its own intellectual properties. And to be fair to you, you've captured something of that intent in the paragraph I've quoted. You've just misjudged the rationale behind it.

I have no comment to make on any other matter. I haven't been associated with GW for over twenty years. I'm glad that they and WD are still around and making their fans happy, though.

By the way, have you seen this?

BBC News - Why are adults still launching tabletop war?

Getting it from the source, I will stand corrected. For the record, even though I wish the magazine were still a multi-game magazine, I have absolutely nothing against WD. The few times I have come autocross it, I have thought it was a very good publication. Just one that doesn't interest me.

I am not unhappy that GW is there and it's good some people are happy with them. I just feel they could be doing a lot better!

I did see that article, even though, to me, it felt more like an advert for GW than an article. It was very good they added a mixed bunch of opinions on the matter too.

I must say, I wish we saw more like it about other aspects of gaming!