Why Games Workshop is not a good business

[EmbraCraig]

Haven't read the full thread, so don't know if anyone has said this - but GW don't make a lot of money from their stores. That's not why the shops are there.

GW shops are there for the purpose of getting new players in - put shiny, nicely painted models and big banners in the windows, give kids a chance to play a game for free, give them a painting lesson. Introduce people to the hobby. GW seem to know and accept the fact that most of their older customers don't buy in stores (they're shopping online), and don't usually game in stores (they play at home, at clubs, elsewhere in general).

Selling other licensed products wouldn't necessarily support that - especially RPGs or computer games, since they're one time purcachases. GWs business model is to get people involved in the games, then keep selling them lots of shiny new models.

As to your experience with the local shop, can't really comment other than to say the shop staff in Edinburgh have been great at any time I've been in. That's both 15-20 years ago when I went in as a kid, or in the last few years since I've restarted as an adult.

EDIT: Also meant to say that GW stores generally don't even have enough space to hold their full miniatures line - most only carry starter sets for each army, new releases and popular models for the high selling armies. Most of the floor space is usually taken up by gaming tables, so not much room to carry stock. I doubt very much that stocking anything that takes up shelf space that someone else is taking a chunk of the cash from is going to happen any time soon.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

um how about this.
McDonalds sells hamburgers, they don't sell Legos, Preschool Toys, Pajamas, etc.
However they do license their images to Lego, Fisher Price (anyone the McDonalds store piece), and to clothing makers. They get cut.
Your arguement seems to me to boil down to McDonalds/GW must stock their stores with everthing with their name on it. And then allow Burger King, Krystal, and Wendys shelf space since they are all in Hamburger industry to promote the Hamburger industry.
change the burgers to rpgs and that appears to be your arguement.
PS Buy stock in the company and go to shareholders meetings and advise them to change their ways.

I'm kind of with Leviatham on this one, if not the tone he uses to convey his points.

First, McDonalds in your analogy would not have to "allow Burger King, Krystal, and Wendys shelf space since they are all in Hamburger industry to promote the Hamburger industry" because Leviatham specifally asked that GW carry GW products, not other RPGs and miniatures lines.

Second, Legos, Fisher Prices toys, and clothing do not directly support McDonald's main business of food service. Therefore, they need not devote space to selling those licensed products. Again, Leviatham did not request that GW stores carry 'anything with their name on it.' I'm sure there are t-shirts with GW branded names on them, which he never mentioned as something they should carry. What he did mention was things like the FFG-produced WFRPG. This is a product that would directly support their main business line of miniatures. A person walking into a GW store may not be interested in wargaming, but might find the concept of the RPG to me much more to their liking. With that purchase the GW staff would have the opportunity to show them the miniatures that would help bring their RPG experience to life on the table. It does not seem unreasonable to me that GW stores should sell GW gaming products.

 

[Cor Azer]

Preamble: I hope my tone doesn't come off too harsh. I'm actually rather enjoying this debate - a nice change from those that quickly devolve into "Nyuh-uh - you!"/"No way - you"

There are various reasons. However I will admit that it was a rude thing to say and I apologise for that. I know someone has asked me to do that before and I haven’t. The reason for that is because I refuse to apologise to someone who requests the apology on someone else’s behalf. Since my comment affects you directly, I have no problems to admit it was wrong of me to say so.
However saying so wasn’t without its reasons. I find the attitude of some of the GW fans to feel like they’ve been brainwashed. The inability to take on board the criticism and simply defend GW not for what they do well, or simply, like Matt did, by showing where I was wrong, and never ever ever ever ever ever ever admit to what GW does badly and always always always defend the company no matter what, is what makes us (with us I mean people outside that circle) look at you guys as if you’ve been brainwashed.

I appreciate the apology, but as a general tip - attempting to justify something after you've apologized makes the apology seem less sincere.

And thankfully, I like to think I love to gripe about where GW goes wrong (why must they torture my Sisters so...), but I also try to give credit where credit is due.

This sort of questions is what makes me feel you haven’t really read my post. You might have gone through the words, but certainly not taken then on board.
Did what I said (“ just by distributing the materials they license, nothing more,”)really escaped you? Do I really need to explain that further?

Don't mistake disagreement with misunderstanding.

I will note that my last post was typed on an iPhone, so I was somewhat terse in somethings due to "fat finger-small keyboard"-itis.

I had thought an earlier post with arguments against the licensed material had already covered that point, so I was going against the extension of it. My apologies for not specifying that.

Are you serious asking me that? Considering how targeted to children the GW products are, is it really that difficult to see what new customers could be targeted and who could come into the shop?

I'm not arguing that they don't target every demographic, but really, is your argument that they should? Yes, I know you're not saying they should target every demographic, but they do target the ones that make sense. The ones that make them money.

Just like baby products aren't advertised to the male 18-40 demographic. Yes, a lot of those males are fathers, and yes, a lot of them have money to spend on those baby products. But it's much more effective to target advertising at the female 18-40 demographic - it's cheaper (I'm sure TLC doesn't charge the same for advertising as ESPN), and it's more likely to yield profit (strictly anecdotal, but us fathers don't often make the baby product purchasing decisions).

Could baby product producers target men? Sure. They might even make a little bit of money. But it would cost them a heck of a lot, money that would be much more wisely invested into greater targeting of their existing demographic.

Sound familiar?

My end like of my suggestion was very clear from the start: “Sell also the products you license”.
I don’t mean to be offensive, but reading my post, and some of the responses more slowly will give you the answers to your questions.

Another tip, if you write something, and you yourself realize that it might be offensive, adding "don't mean to be offensive" does not suddenly make it not offensive. It's much easier to rewrite it in a non-offensive way. Thankfully, years of tech support have thickened my skin, so I try to ignore the presentation and seek the meat.

GW stores have limited shelf space. They are inherently finite given physical products in a physical space. What you haven't done is address how removing some of their product that yields 100% profits to them and replacing it with product that yields, at best, 10-15% somehow magically helps (That number is strictly monkey-poo; I don't know what their licensing percentage is, but if it's higher than that, then in my opinion they've got some wicked-skilled lawyers or their licensees are wicked-inept).

How does it help their business? Do you really think that many new customers would be brought it to cover that gap? How long would that take? From another posters comment, the shops are doing just above break-even so could they sustain a short term loss until the gap is made up?

Are you also suggesting they spend their advertising budget on another companies licensed product as well? Because if GW doesn't advertise them in places these new customers look, then how would they know these licensed products exist there? I don't expect FFG spends its money to advertise GW stores - I haven't seen any ads lately, but I expect that they say stuff like "shop online at FFG or at your local gaming store". So the two possibilities are GW's license forces its licensees to advertise the GW shops (which they might, but I would suspect that the negotiated license percentage drops accordingly) or GW spends time advertising another company's product, which still cuts into that hypothetical 10-15%.

And without any extra advertising, the only new customers are those who just happen to wander by this colorful store with painted miniatures in the windows and pop in to see what it's all about. Which is what they already get. So all you gain by having the licensed products in there are the very few who go "Huh! Painted miniatures - cool. Oh, but I don't want to buy any, but hey! I can play a game where I imagine I'm playing one of them!" That sounds like a suspiciously small number of new customers to overcome the huge gap in potential profit of carrying their own products vs licensed ones.

An exaggeration? Perhaps, but I wouldn't think by much.

Yes, seems likely, but that is just another assumption, like the ones I have made. I am not questioning the licensing model. It works and I am glad I can find their RPGs and boardgames without having to step into their shop.
So far, to me it feels like they ignore that sales potential. Maybe they don’t and I am happy to be put wrong if I am given so evidence of the contrary. Until then, I will believe they ignore it.

Ah. A cynic. That's ok, but I tend towards realism. Well, no, I tend towards idealism and optimism (with a dash of self-deprecation), but logic keeps me weighed down.

Yes, I made assumptions. But all assumptions are not created equal. Generally, assuming someone's incompetence in their area of expertise is a poor assumption. Likewise, extraordinary talent is called extraordinary because it's beyond the ordinary. I tend to assume general competence, nothing below or above average.

Unfortunately, I suspect nobody will ever show you evidence to the contrary. If (and since I assume general competence, I suspect that's a 'true') GW did do research into the feasibility of carrying licensed products in their stores, they would never release it for public consumption. It would show too much information about their financial situation and/or risk acceptance/aversion. Companies do not like giving out that information.

Thankfully, were this a full and proper debate, we wouldn't have to show evidence. Evidence is generally required of the person making the extraordinary claim (ie - you and their ignorance). Of course, you get off the hook, because 1. this isn't really a full and proper debate, and 2. the only way I can see you ever proving that they did ignore the potential is by gaining complete access to all of their financial and corporate documents and trawling through them to show there's nary a mention of carrying licensed products. Again, companies do not like giving out that information.

Which leaves us at two assumptions - you and their ignorance in their area of expertise, and me and their general competence in their area of expertise. I know which I'd bet on, but then, I'm inherently biased towards my own assumptions (which is why they're mine).

Not true. Some of the shelf and shop window space we gave up was to sell photos from other photographers. They were side by side with photos taken by us. Plenty of people bought those photos and we proceeded to frame them. True that we didn’t make less money from those sales, but we had a satisfied customer who came back for more and, most importantly, who spoke to their friends about us.

It's close to a parallel, but not quite, assuming I understand you correctly - your shop gave up shelf space for your photos to allow shelf space for photos by other people? So the customers are still looking for photos, right? And you didn't have to change your advertising much (if at all), would you have? It's still photos (I can't speak to how famous the photographers are/were, so perhaps they were a big deal and I'm paying them an insult by saying 'still photos'). Did you really get in that many customers who wouldn't have already entered your store?

To be clear, I don't want to imply that expanding the lines of products carried can't be beneficial. It's all about risk. The shop you worked for was prepared to take that risk, and for you, it worked. GW, for their own reasons, are not prepared for that risk, although I suspect it's because in their assessment, it's not worth it. Risk-aversion doesn't make a company 'not good'.

You ignore other factors. A small shop (or even a big one) doesn’t have the network infrastructure, the branding, the reputation and the sales force. They already have all of that and it would be much cheaper for them to distribute products to their shops than for a small shop to get them.
The game shop, if they’re doing their shop properly, will find out what the customer wants and find the right product. In the right manner, will also try to showcase other products that could be of interest and try to sell something else. GW’s shops are no different, or shouldn’t be.

GW has the distribution network to get their product to their shops. They do not have the network to get other people's products out to them. That would require new routes from other companies' warehouses to their own, or setting up addition distribution routes from those companies to deliver directly to the GW shop. So I would argue it would not be any cheaper for them to get the licensed products. GW may be a heavy-weight in the miniatures market, but they don't wield the influence a place like Walmart has to dictate the distributor's prices. There might be a slight advantage in that they could order at bulk rates (if such exist), but I wouldn't be surprised if that advantage weren't offset by the extra labour costs for them to break those bulk orders down to reship to individual stores.

I'll give you the sale forces - I don't think it'd be too much of a stretch to assume a general level of geek knowledge amongst their retail staff for them to know a thing or too about the licensed products.

GW's shops are different though. A regular retailer, one who doesn't also produce their own product, doesn't truly care what product they sell. They buy what their customers want, and then resell it in a way that, with luck, makes them money. They might specialize in a particular area due to owner and staff knowledge, but within that area, it's just personal appeal and what the customer wants. That's not the case for GW though. GW aren't there to just sell product. They're there to sell very specific product. Everything I've ever heard says that gaming shops run a pretty thin margin, and GW seems to stay above that margin by focusing on the products that make them the most money - their own. They're there to get people into the miniature wargame hobby. Pushy exaggeration from the earlier linked comics aside, they want new customers to come in, and buy dozens of miniatures. That's where they make their money. Getting new customers in to buy a licensed RPG and then maybe a model, isn't worth the advertising and carrying costs to them. Now, it might be for you. It might even make a little bit of money. But, especially now that GW is a publicly traded company, they have an obligation to their shareholders to turn over as much profit as they legally can. And simply put, they make more money selling only their direct products. At least an order of magnitude more money.

Again, please read previous responses. The most obvious I have said is “sell the products you license”.

And again, I ask why? What is the gain? You haven't adequately explained that.

Who are these mythical new customers who would be looking for a licensed GW product, and know enough that GW has it's own stores, but don't know about GW's main product line? If they're only familiar with the IP, without realizing it's by GW, why would they be looking at the GW shop in the first place? Is that really a big enough demographic to make up the gap between 100% profit yield and whatever fraction the licensed product yields?

I can't see it.

 

[Leviatham]

Preamble: I hope my tone doesn't come off too harsh. I'm actually rather enjoying this debate - a nice change from those that quickly devolve into "Nyuh-uh - you!"/"No way - you"

Your tone comes actually a lot softer than mine, so I shan't complain!

I am not trying to be rude or anything. I do have a rather harsh style of writing. Partly that English is not my mother tongue, partly that I am a rather blunt man and partly because I am used to use the tone of my voice to convey the emotion of what I write, rather than the selection of words.

So I'd say if I sound like a dickhead (I know I do sometimes), just add a smile to the words and you probably are close to the tone I had in my mind when I typed.

I appreciate the apology, but as a general tip - attempting to justify something after you've apologized makes the apology seem less sincere.

It was sincere and meant. I only added the explanation as I didn't want you to think I was just being patronising. Misguided and undeserving, I did have my reasons say what I said and I thought appropriate to explain myself rather than just let it hang.

I don't really do insincerity... takes too much time and I am appalling at it!

And thankfully, I like to think I love to gripe about where GW goes wrong (why must they torture my Sisters so...), but I also try to give credit where credit is due.

And that is where I went wrong in the first place. I didn't give them credit where they deserve it.

Don't mistake disagreement with misunderstanding.

I will note that my last post was typed on an iPhone, so I was somewhat terse in somethings due to "fat finger-small keyboard"-itis.

I had thought an earlier post with arguments against the licensed material had already covered that point, so I was going against the extension of it. My apologies for not specifying that.

I think it has been covered, but it is one of the issues that I think could be worked in their shops and I really mean just the product they license, as in the gaming products that carry their brand and are under their influence.

I'm not arguing that they don't target every demographic, but really, is your argument that they should? Yes, I know you're not saying they should target every demographic, but they do target the ones that make sense. The ones that make them money.

Just like baby products aren't advertised to the male 18-40 demographic. Yes, a lot of those males are fathers, and yes, a lot of them have money to spend on those baby products. But it's much more effective to target advertising at the female 18-40 demographic - it's cheaper (I'm sure TLC doesn't charge the same for advertising as ESPN), and it's more likely to yield profit (strictly anecdotal, but us fathers don't often make the baby product purchasing decisions).

Could baby product producers target men? Sure. They might even make a little bit of money. But it would cost them a heck of a lot, money that would be much more wisely invested into greater targeting of their existing demographic.

Sound familiar?

Are you calling the GW miniatures product for children?

OK, when I go to a convention like, say Salute (wargame convention in the UK . I am assuming you're in the USA, sorry if I am getting that wrong) the people there are not all that young. There is a lot of young people, but there is also a TON of guys in their 40s and 50s into wargames.

Last time I went to the GW shop in Brighton, some 5 years ago, there were three older guys playing, probably late 40s or early 50's.

That is the kind of audience they could build up upon directly.

Then there are the people who are into the boardgames and RPGs who could be directly targeted by the companies that produce the games (FFC). I'll elaborate on that one a bit lower down in this post.

Another tip, if you write something, and you yourself realize that it might be offensive, adding "don't mean to be offensive" does not suddenly make it not offensive. It's much easier to rewrite it in a non-offensive way. Thankfully, years of tech support have thickened my skin, so I try to ignore the presentation and seek the meat.

Interesting that, unrelated to this post, someone in my office made a similar comment while we laughed at the office today. Again, add a smile to that and that's closer to how I meant it. I really didn't mean to be offensive.

GW stores have limited shelf space. They are inherently finite given physical products in a physical space. What you haven't done is address how removing some of their product that yields 100% profits to them and replacing it with product that yields, at best, 10-15% somehow magically helps (That number is strictly monkey-poo; I don't know what their licensing percentage is, but if it's higher than that, then in my opinion they've got some wicked-skilled lawyers or their licensees are wicked-inept).

It's not really an "either/or" situation for me. The way they use their space in their shops is not particularly efficient.

How does it help their business? Do you really think that many new customers would be brought it to cover that gap? How long would that take? From another posters comment, the shops are doing just above break-even so could they sustain a short term loss until the gap is made up?

I think it'd help their business by attracting a different, if related, clientèle. And yes, I truly believe it would help them. For starters it would attract me! I have, easily, £500 in GW boardgames and RPGs.

Actually, make it closer to £1000 since I have a couple of limited editions. I had to buy that in Amazon (a lot less margin for them) or directly from FFG (eye-watering postage costs, I can tell you!). That is £1000 they could have got in their shop. I can't be the only one.

Are you also suggesting they spend their advertising budget on another companies licensed product as well? Because if GW doesn't advertise them in places these new customers look, then how would they know these licensed products exist there? I don't expect FFG spends its money to advertise GW stores - I haven't seen any ads lately, but I expect that they say stuff like "shop online at FFG or at your local gaming store". So the two possibilities are GW's license forces its licensees to advertise the GW shops (which they might, but I would suspect that the negotiated license percentage drops accordingly) or GW spends time advertising another company's product, which still cuts into that hypothetical 10-15%.

And without any extra advertising, the only new customers are those who just happen to wander by this colorful store with painted miniatures in the windows and pop in to see what it's all about. Which is what they already get. So all you gain by having the licensed products in there are the very few who go "Huh! Painted miniatures - cool. Oh, but I don't want to buy any, but hey! I can play a game where I imagine I'm playing one of them!" That sounds like a suspiciously small number of new customers to overcome the huge gap in potential profit of carrying their own products vs licensed ones.

An exaggeration? Perhaps, but I wouldn't think by much.

Please don't get me started on their advertising. In there I downright thing they are utter !

The thing is that I don't think they would have to advertise too much. FFG already advertises, they'd just have to say "also available in GW stores" and people would know.

A little addition to their newsletter to let people know that they can now get other GW products in their shops would also do some of the work for them.

Shop windows are an incredible asset. I took a diploma in shop-window design years ago and I can tell you that the use they make of their shop windows is absolutely appalling. If they used just a 25% of that space to show the gorgeous illustrations in the boxes or their games, they would get, easily, 75% more attention from passing people.

Ah. A cynic.

Damn you blew my cover!

That's ok, but I tend towards realism. Well, no, I tend towards idealism and optimism (with a dash of self-deprecation), but logic keeps me weighed down.

Ah my friend.. if anything I am indeed an idealist. I just let my cynicism gets the better of me.

Yes, I made assumptions. But all assumptions are not created equal. Generally, assuming someone's incompetence in their area of expertise is a poor assumption. Likewise, extraordinary talent is called extraordinary because it's beyond the ordinary. I tend to assume general competence, nothing below or above average.

<Cynic>My friend, I have worked for corporations in the past. Also, I work on a daily basis with some of the biggest companies in the UK. Corporations that make billions. Trust me, competence comes in VERY short supply!</cynic>

Your position is probably wiser than mine!

Unfortunately, I suspect nobody will ever show you evidence to the contrary. If (and since I assume general competence, I suspect that's a 'true') GW did do research into the feasibility of carrying licensed products in their stores, they would never release it for public consumption. It would show too much information about their financial situation and/or risk acceptance/aversion. Companies do not like giving out that information.

And, to be honest, I truly hope I never see them. I absolutely ADORE these debates and I admit that slacking GW is a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine!

Thankfully, were this a full and proper debate, we wouldn't have to show evidence. Evidence is generally required of the person making the extraordinary claim (ie - you and their ignorance). Of course, you get off the hook, because 1. this isn't really a full and proper debate, and 2. the only way I can see you ever proving that they did ignore the potential is by gaining complete access to all of their financial and corporate documents and trawling through them to show there's nary a mention of carrying licensed products. Again, companies do not like giving out that information.

And, quite frankly... what fun would it be? Not a lot.

That's the job for audits, accountants and lawyers. I am just an art director and psychotherapist... with dyslexia and discalculia... it would take me a lifetime to sieve those documents anyway!

Which leaves us at two assumptions - you and their ignorance in their area of expertise, and me and their general competence in their area of expertise. I know which I'd bet on, but then, I'm inherently biased towards my own assumptions (which is why they're mine).

Certainly, and the fact that we make different assumptions derives in conversation, which, I am really pleased to say, we are managing to keep to civil levels. Not something that can be said of everyone, so gentle tap in our backs!

It's close to a parallel, but not quite, assuming I understand you correctly - your shop gave up shelf space for your photos to allow shelf space for photos by other people? So the customers are still looking for photos, right? And you didn't have to change your advertising much (if at all), would you have? It's still photos (I can't speak to how famous the photographers are/were, so perhaps they were a big deal and I'm paying them an insult by saying 'still photos'). Did you really get in that many customers who wouldn't have already entered your store?

There is a parallel. They were photos. GW would still sell games. Different games, but games nonetheless.

As for the advertising, I really think GW is at it, but also that they wouldn't have to change much.

To be clear, I don't want to imply that expanding the lines of products carried can't be beneficial. It's all about risk. The shop you worked for was prepared to take that risk, and for you, it worked. GW, for their own reasons, are not prepared for that risk, although I suspect it's because in their assessment, it's not worth it. Risk-aversion doesn't make a company 'not good'.

You are right, it's a matter of taking the risk. That's where I disagree. I think that not taking that risk makes it less good. And I say so because I believe the risk would be small and the benefits would be worth it.

GW has the distribution network to get their product to their shops. They do not have the network to get other people's products out to them. That would require new routes from other companies' warehouses to their own, or setting up addition distribution routes from those companies to deliver directly to the GW shop. So I would argue it would not be any cheaper for them to get the licensed products. GW may be a heavy-weight in the miniatures market, but they don't wield the influence a place like Walmart has to dictate the distributor's prices. There might be a slight advantage in that they could order at bulk rates (if such exist), but I wouldn't be surprised if that advantage weren't offset by the extra labour costs for them to break those bulk orders down to reship to individual stores.

Maybe this is a bit simplistic, but wouldn't it be easy if the product from FFG is sent to GW's distribution centre and the boxes are shipped with the miniatures? That's why I think they already have the infrastructure there.

I'll give you the sale forces - I don't think it'd be too much of a stretch to assume a general level of geek knowledge amongst their retail staff for them to know a thing or too about the licensed products.

That would probably be the easiest bit, in fairness. Getting knowledge on their RPGs and boardgames takes a lot less than getting to grips with their line of miniatures, which is quite extensive.

GW's shops are different though. A regular retailer, one who doesn't also produce their own product, doesn't truly care what product they sell. They buy what their customers want, and then resell it in a way that, with luck, makes them money. They might specialize in a particular area due to owner and staff knowledge, but within that area, it's just personal appeal and what the customer wants. That's not the case for GW though. GW aren't there to just sell product. They're there to sell very specific product. Everything I've ever heard says that gaming shops run a pretty thin margin, and GW seems to stay above that margin by focusing on the products that make them the most money - their own. They're there to get people into the miniature wargame hobby. Pushy exaggeration from the earlier linked comics aside, they want new customers to come in, and buy dozens of miniatures. That's where they make their money. Getting new customers in to buy a licensed RPG and then maybe a model, isn't worth the advertising and carrying costs to them. Now, it might be for you. It might even make a little bit of money. But, especially now that GW is a publicly traded company, they have an obligation to their shareholders to turn over as much profit as they legally can. And simply put, they make more money selling only their direct products. At least an order of magnitude more money.

But it is "their" product to a great extent. If the customers I deal with are anything to go by, GW will have to have a sign off on everything everyone else does, from RPGs to official t-shirts. That's why they are so hot on not letting fan created content out there if they can help it.

I can understand the wanting to keep to the product they know and does well for them, but I also think what they could win in terms of new customers, extra trade and reputation would be worth it.

And again, I ask why? What is the gain? You haven't adequately explained that.

Who are these mythical new customers who would be looking for a licensed GW product, and know enough that GW has it's own stores, but don't know about GW's main product line? If they're only familiar with the IP, without realizing it's by GW, why would they be looking at the GW shop in the first place? Is that really a big enough demographic to make up the gap between 100% profit yield and whatever fraction the licensed product yields?

I can't see it.

The gain is in what I mentioned earlier. New customers, trade and reputation.

The new customers would be people who now find reasons (or excuses) to complain about them and stay away from their shops. I can tell you, if they stocked the boardgames and RPGs, it is likely I would end up buying miniatures. I would probably end up writing reviews about their products and talking about them in my podcast.

I know not everyone does that sort of thing (I am very freaky!) but there would be a lot of people who would end up in their stores.

This sort of marketing, with parallel products, works well in other areas. When you find a collectors edition video game that is exclusive to one retailer, that retailer is selling that product for a lot less margin. Sometimes for next to none. What they gain is the presence, the reputation and the public's attention.

Not an easy thing to quantify, but it is something very, very valuable.

To give another example, take a look at Barnes & Noble with boardgames. Traditionally, it is not their market, yet, they give up floor space to sell something that looks completely unrelated.

The first time someone suggested having a Starbucks in their premises probably a lot of people thought they were mad. Nowadays, it is a pretty common sight.

Can you see why I think they could do a lot better? It might be very different and it might look loopy, but if it works for others, why not for them?

 

[Leviatham]

Haven't read the full thread, so don't know if anyone has said this - but GW don't make a lot of money from their stores. That's not why the shops are there.

GW shops are there for the purpose of getting new players in - put shiny, nicely painted models and big banners in the windows, give kids a chance to play a game for free, give them a painting lesson. Introduce people to the hobby. GW seem to know and accept the fact that most of their older customers don't buy in stores (they're shopping online), and don't usually game in stores (they play at home, at clubs, elsewhere in general).

Selling other licensed products wouldn't necessarily support that - especially RPGs or computer games, since they're one time purcachases. GWs business model is to get people involved in the games, then keep selling them lots of shiny new models.

As to your experience with the local shop, can't really comment other than to say the shop staff in Edinburgh have been great at any time I've been in. That's both 15-20 years ago when I went in as a kid, or in the last few years since I've restarted as an adult.

EDIT: Also meant to say that GW stores generally don't even have enough space to hold their full miniatures line - most only carry starter sets for each army, new releases and popular models for the high selling armies. Most of the floor space is usually taken up by gaming tables, so not much room to carry stock. I doubt very much that stocking anything that takes up shelf space that someone else is taking a chunk of the cash from is going to happen any time soon.

Several arguments that could be had.

If a shop is not giving enough selling a specific product, there are various things to do. Either market the product to reach more people (within the same demographics or expanding it), reduce the overheads (not always possible if one is running at the bear minimum) or expand the product range to explore new avenues.

There could be other strategies, but those are the main things that come ot mind right away.

Selling other licenses products would support just that, without having to change their branding, or gain knowledge of a different basic product line (marines are marines in RPGs, miniature games, videogames and movies. I'm saying this as illustration, not wanting to limit to just that)

You have gone into the shop as someone who is interested in their games. Try going into a shop in another town, or another shop in Edinburgh (if there is any) and ask about something else, or simply tell them you're just browsing, your experience is likely to be very different.

If their stores don't have enough space to host more product, they should look into more efficient ways to display stuff. Perpetuating a style of retail that doesn't exploit their product to the best of it's advantage is a mistake in any area of retail.

 

[EmbraCraig]

Several arguments that could be had.

If a shop is not giving enough selling a specific product, there are various things to do. Either market the product to reach more people (within the same demographics or expanding it), reduce the overheads (not always possible if one is running at the bear minimum) or expand the product range to explore new avenues.

There could be other strategies, but those are the main things that come ot mind right away.

Selling other licenses products would support just that, without having to change their branding, or gain knowledge of a different basic product line (marines are marines in RPGs, miniature games, videogames and movies. I'm saying this as illustration, not wanting to limit to just that)

You have gone into the shop as someone who is interested in their games. Try going into a shop in another town, or another shop in Edinburgh (if there is any) and ask about something else, or simply tell them you're just browsing, your experience is likely to be very different.

If their stores don't have enough space to host more product, they should look into more efficient ways to display stuff. Perpetuating a style of retail that doesn't exploit their product to the best of it's advantage is a mistake in any area of retail.

But that all comes with the assumption that the reason for the shop being there is purely to sell product. As I said in my original post, that's not the primary reason that the GW shops are there.

I'm pretty sure GW HQ will have had a conversation about whether it's worth taking away some of the gaming tables to put up shelves with more product on them - it's not the way they want to go with them.

Would carrying RPGs help them? Maybe, maybe not... I play the 40k RPGs weekly, and manage without minis 99% of the time, so I don't think it would help them sell more models. I don't think it would really introduce any more people to the core game either - I'd guess people that play the 40k RPGs are generally aware of the core GW games and already know if they're interested and where they could find out/buy things for them.

And what response would I get if I went into another shop and asked about something that they didn't sell? Well, probably not much help... but the very most I could reasonaly expect would be someone politely suggesting somewhere I might find what I was looking for. Any more than that would probably be because they're a generally helpful person (and would give the same answer if you asked them on the street, for example) and not much related to whether they were working in a vaguely related shop or not.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

And what response would I get if I went into another shop and asked about something that they didn't sell? Well, probably not much help... but the very most I could reasonaly expect would be someone politely suggesting somewhere I might find what I was looking for. Any more than that would probably be because they're a generally helpful person (and would give the same answer if you asked them on the street, for example) and not much related to whether they were working in a vaguely related shop or not.

Every gaming store I've frequented would order the merchandise so they could sell it to me, as long as it's currently in print. That's one sign of a FLGS.

The grocery store I frequent prides itself on ordering items it doesn't normally carry upon customer request.

This is what good stores do. A typical store may not, but this is what I think the OP refers to when labeling GW 'bad' in measures other than pure profit.

 

[Leviatham]

Every gaming store I've frequented would order the merchandise so they could sell it to me, as long as it's currently in print. That's one sign of a FLGS.

The grocery store I frequent prides itself on ordering items it doesn't normally carry upon customer request.

This is what good stores do. A typical store may not, but this is what I think the OP refers to when labeling GW 'bad' in measures other than pure profit.

I am with you on that one, expect on one point. I have never labeled GW bad. I have said they are not good.

I know it might sound like that means they are bad, but it really doesn't. They are bad at quite a few things, but that is a subject for another thread.

What I really wanted to concentrate was in pointing out that they could be better and do better, not that they are bad.

 

[Artur Hawkwing]

First, let me say that I have been into the Games Workshop store near me once, right after it opened to check it out. Grant that was 2 years ago, but the staff there, while obviously full of knowledge about their product, ignored all of the customers in the store, of which there were five of us, in order to debate which kind of brush was better for painting certain kinds of terrain effects on the bases of minis. I watched two people return the items they were wanting to purchase to the shelves when their attempts to get the sales persons attentions were ignored, as the three of them turned their back to the customers and kept arguing about the composition of the bristles. It was rather amusing.

Now, having not been back sense, I have little doubt that those individuals likely are no longer there, and when I do happen into that shopping center, there are usually a few cars clustered in front of the store and a steady stream of what look to be college aged customers shuffling in and out, usually with bags. They found their niche and seem to fill it well.

Finally...regarding the McDonald's analogy, I have to interject here that you have to consider the constantly rotating stock of "Happy Meal" toys (including legos) that they use to sell their kids meals. If you look at that, anyone who uses that model does, in fact, stock products from outside of their food oriented focus.

 

[Leviatham]

But that all comes with the assumption that the reason for the shop being there is purely to sell product. As I said in my original post, that's not the primary reason that the GW shops are there.

I'm pretty sure GW HQ will have had a conversation about whether it's worth taking away some of the gaming tables to put up shelves with more product on them - it's not the way they want to go with them.

Would carrying RPGs help them? Maybe, maybe not... I play the 40k RPGs weekly, and manage without minis 99% of the time, so I don't think it would help them sell more models. I don't think it would really introduce any more people to the core game either - I'd guess people that play the 40k RPGs are generally aware of the core GW games and already know if they're interested and where they could find out/buy things for them.

And what response would I get if I went into another shop and asked about something that they didn't sell? Well, probably not much help... but the very most I could reasonaly expect would be someone politely suggesting somewhere I might find what I was looking for. Any more than that would probably be because they're a generally helpful person (and would give the same answer if you asked them on the street, for example) and not much related to whether they were working in a vaguely related shop or not.

The reason for any shop to be there is to sell. If the reason for a shop to be there is not to sell, then they are being stupid. It is an incredibly expensive way to maintain a presence and there are other ways to do that more cheaply.

That they don't want to go with it is clear, and it is also their prerogative. That I am questioning the judgement behind that decision and deciding to believe that they are wrong is mine. You are welcome to justify what they do, but that doesn't mean that it is the best thing to do.

Coming into a shop to buy product A2, gives the shop the chance to introduce and sell product A1. That is common sense.

Your expectations and mine are indeed at a par. However I didn't find that politeness that both of us would expect. That, doesn't make a good business. I would never, in a million years, employ someone to be in a shop unless that person is genuinely helpful. If anything because I never go back to a shop where the assistants are not helpful.