D&D 5E Why Good Players Should Not Play Champions

[Blue]

Several people have mentioned that compared to other classes Battle Master is a bit front loaded. So yeah, it's easy to look at all you get with a BM including having these juicy abilities you can use ... extremely sparingly. But the champion is solid in terms of delivering damage. I see straight champions played, and I see multiclass barb/champions played because constant advantage plus a 19-20 crit range make almost a fifth of attacks (19%) into crits.

Half Orcs with Great Axes seem to be the favored champion combo, for 3d12+Str on a crit.

 

[Flamestrike]

Several people have mentioned that compared to other classes Battle Master is a bit front loaded. So yeah, it's easy to look at all you get with a BM including having these juicy abilities you can use ... extremely sparingly. But the champion is solid in terms of delivering damage. I see straight champions played, and I see multiclass barb/champions played because constant advantage plus a 19-20 crit range make almost a fifth of attacks (19%) into crits.

Half Orcs with Great Axes seem to be the favored champion combo, for 3d12+Str on a crit.

Champion 3/ Barbarian X.

Half orc using a greataxe (shock horror) works the best.

Half orc brutal critical plus barbarian brutal critical plus 19-20 crit range plus reckless attack for advantage on all your swings plus GWM plus GWS for the win.

Each swing has a 19.1 percent chance of triggering a crit. A crit triggers a bonus action attack and deals a bucketload of d12's. Re-roll 1's and 2's on your damage die.

 

[happyhermit]

I think the Champion is going to be most enjoyable when players aren't looking for lots of predefined abilities or fiddly things to do. When I play one I almost feel like I don't need my character sheet, and I like that.

For me, and the players who seemed to have the most fun with it, there ends up being a lot of improvised/situational type actions which means the much maligned "remarkable athlete" comes in handy. Combined with the fighter chassis (stat bumps etc.) and additional fighting style, there is a lot they can do. Doesn't matter if some other class has a better score, as longs as they can accomplish the cool things, which they certainly can.

This is likely dependent on play-styles and how particular tables are run.

 

[Zardnaar]

Assuming 5 rounds per combat, 7 combats per long rest, 2 short rests per long rest. (A standard adventuring day).

A 5th level Half Orc Greatxe (GWM/S) weilding Champion 5 gets (2 attacks per round plus a bonus action attack every 2-3 rounds from GWM) = 80 or so attack rolls (not incluing attacks of opportunity/ sentinel attacks etc) per long rest.

With a 19-20 crit chance, thats an extra 4 crits per long rest over and above his BM buddy. Each crit gives him +2d12 damage. He gets an extra +8d12 damage per long rest on a standard adventuring day.

His BM buddy gets +12d8 over the same period (plus riders) from his sup dice.

So about even on your standard adventuring day. On shorter days (with the same short rest frequency) the BM pulls ahead. On longer days (with fewer short rests) the Champion pulls ahead.

Instead of riders, the champion gets an extra fighting style, a nice boost to initiative (and Str/ Dex/ Con checks he isnt proficient in) and at high level, regeneration.

Im not seeing it. Well... unless you are running single encounter adventuring days, or allowing short rests after every single fight, and if you're doing that youre invalidating more classes than just the Champion (and its a fault with your DMing style and not the class).

5 rounds is likely generous. 4 rounds is a long combat for us 2 or 3 rounds is more typical.

Also not fair adding a racial ability in there as well. Take the half orc out and 3 or 4 round combats that are likely more typical and BM wins yes?

And that excludes other things the BM can do. If you can use a half Orc can I have a rogue in the party sunce you are assuming optimal conditions?

 

[Valetudo]

You claim its a bad subclass but you dont play it, so how do you know the numbers dont add up? Ive seen the champion in play and its fine. Also I wouldnt really consider what I would call good. From what what Ive read from your threads, they come off a robotic and munchkinny and donk think about actual characters. Sorry if Im sounding mean but I wouldnt play with your group.

 

[bid]

Champion 3/ Barbarian X.

Half orc using a greataxe (shock horror) works the best.

Half orc brutal critical plus barbarian brutal critical plus 19-20 crit range plus reckless attack for advantage on all your swings plus GWM plus GWS for the win.

Each swing has a 19.1 percent chance of triggering a crit. A crit triggers a bonus action attack and deals a bucketload of d12's. Re-roll 1's and 2's on your damage die.

I did the numbers, and BM precision attacks beat improved crits easily. Champion is pointless until you hit level 7 and remarkable athlete.

 

[Valetudo]

I did the numbers, and BM precision attacks beat improved crits easily. Champion is pointless until you hit level 7 and remarkable athlete.

how many encouters did you use? What creatures did y use? Did you use a dex build or a str build? Such a blank statement proves nothing.

 

[Flamestrike]

5 rounds is likely generous. 4 rounds is a long combat for us 2 or 3 rounds is more typical.

You have 2 round combats as 'typical'? Id like to see your encounter design and set up.

Also not fair adding a racial ability in there as well. Take the half orc out and 3 or 4 round combats that are likely more typical and BM wins yes?

If using a longsword and as a human, then you get a lot less mileage out of the archetype for sure, just like if you have fewer than the recommended number of encounters per day. If you have a lot of encounters (and not much time to rest) then it comes back up again.

Things like flametounges, weapons that deal extra die damage, rogue or barbarian dips, or a regular source of advantage bring it back up again also. With an 18-20 crit range and advantage you have a 27.8 percent chance of every swing being an auto hit and a crit. Useful for particularly hard to hit targets at high level as well.

Assuming even just 3 round combats, 7 per long rest and 2.5 short rests at 20th level youre getting (4 x 28) or around 120 attacks per long rest (not including attacks of opportunity, polearm master bonus attacks, two weapon fighting, sentinel, GWM etc). The latter should net you another 20 or so attacks per long rest. Lets say 140 attacks per long rest at 20th level.

With an 18-20 crit range (and no advantage) you're spamming 2 extra crits every 20 swings. Unoptimised (human with greatsword) you're dealing 17 extra crits per long rest or 34d6 extra damage per long rest. Its around the same as the 21d12 you're spamming as a BM fighter (2 and a half short rests).

Grab a flametounge for an extra 4d6 fire damage on each of those 17 crits (and shove your target down on the first swing for a 30 percent crit chance per swing) if you want to highlight what a champion can do.

 

[Flamestrike]

I did the numbers, and BM precision attacks beat improved crits easily. Champion is pointless until you hit level 7 and remarkable athlete.

The Champion takes Martial adept and does both.

 

[bid]

how many encouters did you use? What creatures did y use? Did you use a dex build or a str build? Such a blank statement proves nothing.

Just try yourself, you'll find the same result.

- Half-orc BM 3 / barbarian 5 with mace.
- Half-orc champ 3 / barbarian 5 with greataxe.
Both use reckless attack against the typical 65% hit target.
BM uses his SD on precision (near misses) and riposte.
Assume something like 35 rounds of combat (in 5-7 encounters) before short rest.


You will run out of hp before the champion catches up on the BM damage. I tried 3 different strategies before giving up.