Why I dislike Sigil and the Lady of Pain

[erleni]

I'm just on the opposite side. I always loved Sigil and the Lady, especially the sense of mistery about her powers and her connection to the city.

To us it was very simple: the Lady is the local goddess. Outside of the city she has no powers, while inside she's able to control almost everything, including the portals and the mazes. That's why other gods can't enter her realm and why in Harbinger House there was a plot to create a god inside Sigil.

The factions were fantastic (Bleak Cabal and Sign of One being my fav).

What I didn't like about Planescape was the Great Wheel, as it felt too much as a straightjacket.

Regarding Di Terlizzi, he's not my favourite artist in D&D but he did a good job overall and matched the feeling of the setting.

 

[S'mon]

I've never much liked Sigil, and never used it any of my campaigns. I'm not sure why they felt it was a good idea to include a mangled version of it in 4e.

OTOH I'm fine with the idea of planar nexus cities with lots of portals. If they're for everyday use I'd generally rather they be the creation of an actual or current civilisation, like the Efreet's City of Brass, or more likely a race of human sorcerer-kings. I like humans - I practically choked on reading the 4e DMG's "Humans are boring!" declaration.

 

[Mirtek]

For all her supposed awesomeness, I always saw the Lady as simply yet another greater power.

She hasn't really done anything to proof that she is more powerful than other greater powers.

a) She slew a greater power. Yes, greater powers can slay each other

b) She keeps other powers out. Power can keep other powers out of their domains. Except when some power sneaks into Sigil anyway

c) The way she had to fight Vecna, at this time a greater power himself. They both fight so similar (and the fact that they fought at all instead of the Lady merely snipping her finger to evict or slay Vecna) tells me that she is just another greater power with simply a very attractive divine realm (aka Sigil)

 

[Klaus]

I love Sigil, and I love the Lady (not took keen on them dabus, otoh, I prefer Gloomwrought's keepers).

The Lady isn't a god, she's a "tool" for DMs to use as they will. She might be the future self of a PC in one campaign, or the mother of all deities in the other. She gives the DM a way to control otherwise incompatible beings and NPCs long enough to form a campaign setting.

 

[RangerWickett]

If I were to justify it, I would say that gods rely on belief for their power, and Sigil is sort of a hub of skepticism, so gods have a hard time deploying their power there.

Sigil is too important to too many people and factions, and so the only god that can exist there is a god of skepticism. Who is the Lady of Pain? No one knows. Fits great for me.

I, for one, dislike settings where there are no metaphysical mysteries. If everyone agrees, "Yup, Mystra's where magic comes from, and this is her exact backstory, and how she interacts with all these other gods who also have exact backstories," then that removes a huge component of the human experience, which is Having No F-ing Idea What the Truth Is.

Without Sigil, you've got a bunch of planes and a bunch of gods who can claim to be greater entities and lord it over whatever domain they claim as their own. But Sigil lets you say, "Even you, little god, are just a belief. An idea. Beliefs can change, and ideas can be forgotten."

Maybe even doubt can die, but I would mourn it greatly.

 

[Aenghus]

I have issues with Sigil and the Lady of Pain myself. I found the setting to be too cynical and deconstructionist, too shades of grey like Eberron. The division between ignorant hick primes and sophisicated cynical residents I found grating. The cant annoyed me. The factions I found shallow and specious, the treatment of alignment as team jerseys insulting. In many ways Planescape was designed as a parody of old fashioned D&D, and it fell flat for me becuase I like old-fashioned D&D.

Part of this is the most local fan of Planescape enjoyed it for many of the reasons I give as negatives above. He saw paladins as Lawful stupid idiots at best, facists at worst. His angels were more evil than his devils, everyone was out for themselves, and most of his PCs were typical 90's edgy anti-heroes in a dingy noir world. Yuck!

And the Lady of Pain herself is a very dangerous type of NPC. She's an untouchable, cryptic figure of great power that is in close proximity to the PCs. To a certain mindset she's a constant reminder of how small you are compared to her. She can easily be used as a means of torturing PCs, or as a means of suicide by bored players. She's a mystery no answers exist for, in a setting that PCs can aspire to and may ultimately achieve godhood (or other forms of apopheosis).

The only way I can think of to make the Lady of Pain less of a pain to to keep her remote, seen in the distance or not at all. Demonstrate that interacting with her is a bad idea, and avoiding her is entirely possible.

 

[Rune]

Returning to Sigil, one effect of the Lady of Pain's existence is that suddenly atheism - in an otherwise theistic cosmos - becomes an option. And, thus, you get the factions. Completely irrelevant outside of Sigil, because the morality and ethics promulgated by the gods actually apply elsewhere.

You, it seems, prefer for your D&D gods to have a tangible presence. That certainly works.

When I run games, the gods are usually (much) more remote, thereby making atheism a reasonable philosophy for characters in the game. As far as a non-believer is concerned, so-called "divine" magic is no more divine than a wizard's magic missile. On the other hand, those who do believe, are actually required to have faith to do so!

To further complicate things, even those who worship the same deity in these games, rarely worship the same concept of that deity. Sometimes, these worshipers directly oppose each other--and they still both get their prayers answered. Atheists tend to view these conflicts as further evidence in support of their philosophy.

My point is, it is entirely possible to play D&D in such a way that morality and ethics are promoted by the worshipers of the gods, rather than the gods, themselves!

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I've made a few comments recently about how I'm not fond of Sigil, Planescape or the Lady of Pain.

In particular, I really, really dislike how the Lady of Pain devalues the gods. I'm not opposed to areas that gods can't enter (see Death's Reach), but the reason they can't enter there is far more convincing than the fiat that enables Sigil.

May I just say I agree with 90% of what you said Merric...if not more, but let me tell you how I made sigil (I like the basic idea) make since in my worlds...


The Lady of Pain was a child of both a primordial and a God pre the divine war... both her parents where killed in the war and she (like the primal spirits) lashed out at both sides. When the war ended she still hated the gods...but was smart enough to know she could not win. The Gods then made a non aggression pact with her...and Sigil was born.

The deal was magic... If she leaves the city of doors she loses her power, but if the gods enter so do they... she is also very powerful on her own.

this lead to one epic moment in my world...

[sblock=my omg moment in epic levels] The lady of pain beat to crud, bleeeding and dieing begging the PCs for help... The ghoul king had eaten the flesh of a dead god, and absorbed some power, and had a plan spaning artafact he was testing for orcus...then entered the city(not being part of the deal he didnt lose the power) stood in the way of the lady of pain, and when she went to throw him into a maze he stoped it and said "In a big city like this you take arguements like this up the ladder, but a back woods guy like me...I just want to take this outside..." when he attacked her he ripped her through the planes, and almost killed her...eating her flesh and gaining more power [/sblock]

having a city of doors in witch the gods do not interfere or enter with a very powerful force in charge is a good plot point...

 

[Tymophil]

I've made a few comments recently about how I'm not fond of Sigil, Planescape or the Lady of Pain. So, here's an explanation for why I feel that way. I'm not particularly fond of Planescape in 2E/3E, but I really dislike the idea in 4E.

I, personnaly dislike the idea that a certain setting is a good or a bad idea for a certain edition of D&D. By the way I am a big fan of the PlaneScape setting and especially of the Lady of Main, the factions, the Dabus, the Cant, etc.
I don't plan to play this setting in D&D4 at the moment, but Sigil and the Planes are a place I would gladly play in again with D&D4.

In particular, I really, really dislike how the Lady of Pain devalues the gods. I'm not opposed to areas that gods can't enter (see Death's Reach), but the reason they can't enter there is far more convincing than the fiat that enables Sigil.

This is one of the ideas I really like about the Lady of Pain and Sigil. It shatters our expectations about the Gods and the Multiverse. A place where the Gods are too much like mortals portray them is dull for me.

Then too, Planescape is part of the extreme fragmentation of D&D, so I've always been opposed to it on that principle. (I also am not fond of DiTerlizzi's artwork, and I despise the cant).

Mainstream D&D settings (Greyhawk, Forgotten Planes, Mystara, Golarion, Points of Light) are not my cup of tea. If I get the notion that "I could do it myself", then it doesn't appeal to me. There are ideas in PlaneScape that could not come off of my head, and it sparkled my imagination.

One of the best times I had recently was the PCs meeting the Raven Queen, and them being speechless as a result. This was a god - their god - and she held the power of life and death over them. That's what I want from the gods: these are the creators of humanity and demihumanity, and they should be loved and occasionally feared.

The lady of Pain would not diminish in any way the awe of your players, because it is not a character to be loved, feared, understood, tec. It is something to be avoided...

This is not to say that the gods are omnipotent and invulnerable - by no means - but can you really imagine the Zeus of Greek mythology or the Odin of Norse mythology being unable to affect the Lady of Pain? The influence of Greek and Norse mythology is extremely visible on the 4E mythology, and it'd be nice to see the gods in a similar position of power.

I dislike the 4E Mythology. I much prefer when the mythology is so alien to the game (and game mechanics) that it gives life to the setting. For exemple, I never link any god to an alignement in my games.

[snip]
Returning to Sigil, one effect of the Lady of Pain's existence is that suddenly atheism - in an otherwise theistic cosmos - becomes an option. And, thus, you get the factions. Completely irrelevant outside of Sigil, because the morality and ethics promulgated by the gods actually apply elsewhere. It sort of works in the confused state of mythological affairs that was 2E, where there seems to be 1001 gods or more, but with the tighter set of mythology in 4E, even if the gods don't work as tightly together as a pantheon as the rest of mythology implies they should, the factions stick out like a sore thumb. Thankfully they're mostly not there in 4E.

Factions added a lot of flavour to the game, but needed some maturity on the player side of things. Religiuon, in Fantasy and in the Real World, doesn't have to make sense, and should avoid trying to make sense. The whole Philosophers with clubs idea was very realistic once you know a little bit of the history of philosophy in Greece. It is a mine of idea for a mind such as mine.

The idea of meeting places - civilisation - in the Astral Sea is an interesting one. Personally, I'm very fond of the City of Brass (dating back to the cover of the old Dungeon Masters Guide), but with Sigil, I really need something more than "it exists because of the Lady of Pain". Who uses it? Why do they use it? What is the civilisation of the outer planar creatures that requires such a meeting place to exist?

In my opinion, Sigil doesn't exist because of the Lady of Pain. Sigil is, the Lady of Pain is, and it's a matter of philosophical debate wher the come from, where they go to, how they occured, etc. It is very unhealthy to ask question about the Lady of Pain...

"An angel and a devil sit down at a bar" sounds like a good start to a story, but why would that meeting ever take place? Is it a forced contrivance to tell a story, or does it make sense within the mythology you have? In 4E, it looks forced to me.

This is just why I like this setting : it raises more questions than it answers question. These are the seeds for my creation. You may prefer other hooks for your creativity to sparkel.

The civilisation of the Efreet gives rise to the City of Brass, and the trade opportunities there for high-level characters, and thus I can justify it. I don't have such a justification for the City of Doors.

Cheers!

Personnaly "trade opportunities" would be a nice thing to pile up... But only there is mystery. This is what I find in Sigil. Some fantasy place that makes sense is, in my mind, an oxymoron.

This only happende when Monte Cook wrote "Faction Wars". In my opinion, he killed the magic of the line by applying mundane goals and rules to this setting.

 

[Ryujin]

I think that, for simplicity sake, in 4e I would just make The Lady a successful "Planeshaper" who, as a result, has absolute power within her own plane. At least that makes it fit within general mechanics and 4e cosmology.

Then I'd just call it a day. I've never used the city, in a campaign, though I can see the utility of it.