Why I dislike Sigil and the Lady of Pain

[Tequila Sunrise]

They have some instances of blatantly going against some of the setting's rules in some truly wtf ways: The Lady of Pain's griffon riding shock troops. Yeah. The three book 'Blood War' trilogy should be ignored.

The other novel, Troy Denning's 'Pages of Pain' is an interesting and pretty decent read on its own, but I wouldn't present it as canonical to the setting in any way.

Ah, so it's not that PS novels are particularly bad; just that they don't agree exactly with PS splats. Thanks.

Eh...tastes vary. I don't know what you mean by "extreme fragmentation of D&D" though?

I think he's referring to TSR's bad business practice of putting out dozens of splats for a dozen different settings, so that D&D's consumer base got fragmented into the PS fans, the DS fans, the FR fans, etc.

 

[Quickleaf]

"An angel and a devil sit down at a bar" sounds like a good start to a story, but why would that meeting ever take place? Is it a forced contrivance to tell a story, or does it make sense within the mythology you have? In 4E, it looks forced to me.

Scenario A: Guardian angel is opposed by old friend turned into a corrupted devil after the fall - each secretly holds out that they'll bring the other to their side. Devil imperils angel's ward, offering to meet with angel to discuss terms for the devil backing down. Hehehe. They need a neutral meeting ground, so Sigil it is...again.

Scenario B: In 4e there are evil angels, one of whom leads Bane's holy war against Erathis, appearing to warlords in fevered dreams. To break a stalemate, the evil angel of Bane does the unthinkable and courts the aid of a devil who once belonged to Erathis' entourage. Naturally, this must be done covertly, and so they arrive in disguise in Sigil at the devil's favorite watering hole.

Scenario C: Promised sanctuary by a wide-eyed cleric, a succubus claiming to seek redemption, flees to Sigil to be escorted through a portal to Celestia...located in a tavern cavorts by the faithful. An angel unexpectedly bars their way, ready to strike down the "fiend and her play thing." The cleric asks to be given a chance to prove the succubus' sincerity. "Shall we sit down and get to know each other then?" asks the succubus arching her brow.

Sure "an angel and a devil sit down at the bar" sounds like the start to an offbeat joke, but from a role-playing perspective that scene has tons of potential man!

 

[DracoSuave]

As for "An Angel and a Devil talk at a bar," if you make it passive, it's going to be boring."

Actually, in one of my default Planescape locales, I had a tavern setting in the Low Ward. It was run by fiends and generally a dangerous place for non-adventurers to be. It was used as a place for the ne'er-do-wells to meet and discuss business, but it also was a great place for adventurers to find jobs the factions didn't want out in the open.

One of the set pieces was a constant, passive, astral deva playing a game of chess with an erinyes. As far as everyone knew they'd been playing forever. No one knew why they were. It was just a mystery to everyone.

But what it did was set up the idea that alignment-based-hate was not as important here as it would seem at first glance. That there were layers beyond the axis of good vs evil and that, in Sigil, other things are going to be more interesting. It told the Paladin that if he started hating on everything evil... it wasn't going to turn out well here.

Sometimes the right set piece can really create atmosphere in a campaign.

 

[TarionzCousin]

One thing that I think deserves to be called out is that even those of us who love Planescape, Sigil, and the Lady of Pain know that it was a bit out of the ordinary. We aren't trying to convert anyone, just sharing why we like it so much.

Yes, it's weird--but it's our kind of weirdness.

 

[DracoSuave]

One thing that I think deserves to be called out is that even those of us who love Planescape, Sigil, and the Lady of Pain know that it was a bit out of the ordinary. We aren't trying to convert anyone, just sharing why we like it so much.

Yes, it's weird--but it's our kind of weirdness.

That's kinda the point behind Planescape... everything is out of the ordinary, even by Planescape standards, which is to say, that everything is out of the ordinary.

Kinda defining the planar attitude, really.

 

[Doombybbr]

the angel and devil sharing a drink would probably be a bit like this
devil:"so what brings you to this plane"
angel:"I killed a guy and got sent here... how about you"
devil:"I foiled an evil guy's plan so I wasn't evil enough for hell anymore"

 

[DracoSuave]

Sigil isn't purgatory. It's just very well connected and neutral.

It's more likely they'd be there to avoid getting summoned. Sigil doesn't allow that sort of shinanegan.

 

[Felon]

I'm not sure that the OP provided much to rebutt, as it was mostly just bullet points of things that he personally doesn't care for. To each their own.

To answer his question, I can certainly imagine Zeus being unable to oppose the Lady of Pain. He wasn't omnipotent. He had to do battle with the likes of the Titans and Typhon (the latter of whom served him a whoopin' by some accounts). These are fictional beings, so who's to say who trumps whom?

We are never told opnely that the Lady is unilaterally more powerful than the gods, it's only inferred from her ability to keep them out of Sigil. But occam's razor doesn't always lead you to the right conclusion. Sigil may just afford her that one trump card that prevents her from having to confront any gods.

The OP doesn't explain what's wrong with atheism being an option. It's just another thing he doesn't like. Seems like aetheism doesn't need a place like Sigil to flourish if the aetheism is interrupted as rejecting the notion that gods deserve to be worshipped. I've played plenty of characters that wanted nothing to do with the gods.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Why do gods have to be that powerful? Why is it a prerequisite for your fantasy funtimes? Why can't the gods -- in certain settings -- be petty, vulnerable, and small-minded? Why can't clerics believe in their deity not because he's the biggest, strongest thing around, but because he represents something the cleric feels is sacred on a level that suffuses the entire multiverse, rather than just the little island where that god is worshiped?

Well, the 4E gods are not all powerful. Just look at the Dawn War and the deity deaths that occurred in it. They did not even create the world, but basically upsurped the creation of the Primordials.

I like the idea of the gods being pretty much opportunistic and there being a lot of gods out there, only a few who are 'invited' to take part in one section of creation, as it allows other gods to come in and try to take over.

 

[Shemeska]

One thing that I think deserves to be called out is that even those of us who love Planescape, Sigil, and the Lady of Pain know that it was a bit out of the ordinary. We aren't trying to convert anyone, just sharing why we like it so much.

Yes, it's weird--but it's our kind of weirdness.

Which is sort of the point of the setting. You're in a place where the metaphysical is physical, and often you're playing mortal PCs interacting with concepts made flesh. It's supposed to be overwhelming. It's supposed to be horrific. It's supposed to be beautiful. It doesn't always have to make sense.

But its atmosphere and style shouldn't insert itself into how I expect other people to play their campaigns on Oerth or Toril or Athas or Golarion. It's out of the ordinary. But some of us adore for precisely that reason.