Why I Ditched Alignments

[billd91]

Actually, the alignment system *does* pretty much preclude the possibility of cutthroat realistic politics, if you think through the implications. The problem is the magic factor. Obviously before any important negotiation or diplomacy there would be "Detect Evil" and "Zone of Truth" and "Detect Lies"-type spells cast on both sides. Clearly if one side is aware that the other side is "evil", they aren't going to trust them. If some politician is "evil", no one is going to vote for him.

There's a problem in the logic here. Just because someone is evil by alignment, that doesn't mean he's not an effective leader, governor, or even a patriot. It might just mean he has a cruel streak and does a lot of looking out for #1 as the main motive for doing the things he does. Octavian was certainly no good man, considering his brutal political purges to squelch rivals (in direct contrast to his uncle Julius), and yet he was pretty effective as Rome's first emperor. And things hummed pretty well under Tiberius, a bitter, depraved pederast.

One thing worth remembering: most fantasy D&D settings, while using idealized heroic behavior models for good and evil, are also tremendously violent. Invasion by humanoids, attacks by dragons, bandits, and so on are all right around the corner. People might very well be willing to get behind a man effective in leadership and not worry so much about whether he relies on torture, assassination, and brutality to protect his own people. There's an old story about why Constantine, while he converted to Christianity, refused to be baptised while he was running Rome. He reportedly said that it's the emperor's job to commit sin and so didn't seek any absolution for the things he felt he had to do for the good and glory of Rome, even if they were very sinful indeed.

 

[ruleslawyer]

That, sir, is an excellent point.

IMHO, alignment still exists in D&D for a simple reason: The narrative one. AL grounds the grand cosmic struggle between Good and Evil (capitals intended) that underpins the default high-fantasy setting that is D&D.

F'rex, in Greyhawk (the "default" D&D setting), most nations are pretty strongly defined by allegiances to higher powers (LG Rao, CE Iuz, LE Hextor), or by their neutrality relative thereto (the Free City). This is the way that the struggle works, and thus how politics plays out is either a matter of straight-out tyrannical rule (Iuz), blind adherence to traditional structures of rulership which have been "proven" to maintain social stability (the Caliphate of Ekbir, the old Great Kingdom), fanatical theocracy (the Pale), or constant infighting between a number of erstwhile rulers, none of them particularly good (the 'modern" Great Kingdom). No one is likely to get political power in Veluna or Furyondy by promulgating an evil discourse, only by hiding his evil intent under a veil of lies and deception and employing those oh-so-handy alignment-concealing spells to do so. That's why they exist, after all. I find this state of affairs perfectly acceptable: Most people who did truly nasty things as political leaders in the real world didn't take office under an open declaration of all the "evil" they would commit.

Now, other worlds (such as, say, Hyboria) have a very good reason for ditching the alignment system because there is no such cosmic conflict for which AL could serve as grounding. If there are gods, they don't care about us, or worse, are alien monstrous beings who see us as food or soul-sucked slaves. The characters are largely murderous, thieving, lawless rogues who thrive under the worst conditions at the edge of civilization. Great fun, all of this, but it's not really the Shining Legion against the Hordes of Darkness stuff. IOW, it depends on the tone you want. But if your concern is that "cutthroat realistic politics" would be out of the picture, then it seems your problem may be more with the ease of use of Detect spells than with alignment per se. Cutthroat realistic politics are easy to imagine (1) in a neutral or evil society, or any society that doesn't have a 95%+ Good population or (2) in any society in which the Evil folks with political aspirations get themselves some decent anti-Detect spells.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

So I'm the Diplomat of Somewhere, and I'm going to meet with the Diplomats from Nowhere and Anywhere. Each of us has a high-priest of our respective churches handy, to cast Discern Lies and Detect Evil and all that good stuff.

The clerics cast their spells, and the negotiations begin, with each cleric recasting spells as needed. Eventually, we come to the main sticking point of the negotiations, the trade imbalance between Somewhere and Nowhere. Seems a lot of wheat is being grown Somewhere and hauled off to Nowhere. But no equal trade is being sold Somewhere.

"You can see how this is unfair," the diplomat from Nowhere exclaims, "why, just last month we imported twenty barges of wheat, while you only let four barges of our apples enter your country."

I cough, glance over at my cleric out of the corner of my eye, and raise my brow slightly. At the prearranged signal, the cleric cries out, "He lies!"

The diplomat from Nowhere stands up, shocked and outraged. He looks over his shoulder at his own cleric, but as I've secretly offered the man twenty-thousand gold crowns to back me, there's no help there. "He lies!" cries the man's own priest. Likewise the priest from Anywhere, similarly bought, echoes him, "he lies!"

The Diplomat from Nowhere protests, but the Diplomat from Anywhere won't hear of it. Clearly, the trade imbalance between Somewhere and Nowhere isn't as bad as he's claimed. Now then, on to the next topic of discussion...

I grin.

 

[Verequus]

I ditched alignment in my game because it utterly fails to encapsulate the complexities of human emotions, desires, ambitions, morals, and actions. Other than that, it is a fantastic mechanic!

Instead, I have what I call mien and it is really only used for characters with divine connections. The miens are: Discord, Grace, Order, and Taint and a character may need to act within those boundaries in order to maintain the ability to channel divine power (i.e. exalted feats, spells, and special abilities).

You see I cannot understand the logic of being beholden to some mystical thing called alignment. But gods, on the other hand, now that makes sense to me.

Can you send me the text for this mechanic?

 

[Altalazar]

Actually, if you thrown in a mass media like we have today, it would probably work like this:

"Democratic clerics claim Republican Politician X is evil, but Republican clerics say he is good"

"Republican clerics claim Democratic Politician Y is evil, but Democratic clerics say he is good"

And that would be the end of the story, because the media would consider having a neutral third-party cleric cast detect evil on either candidat as a violation of objectivity (and would be too much work - easier just to report everything, no matter how ridiculous, as 'he said, she said' and leave it at that).

And even if some neutral party did cast detect evil and tried to publish the results, you'd end up with that neutral party smeared, such that if they detected a Republican Politician as evil, then the Republicans would paint him as really a partisan Democrat, using as evidence the fact that he found the Republican candidate to be evil, and only a democrat would find a republican to be evil (and vice-versa), thus putting the story back up into the he said, she said format above, as the media would, again, not try to confirm the validity of the spell, they'd just go back to the default mode above.

So you see, detect alignment spells would not alter how things worked at all.

So the only option is to get really cynical, become an independent adventurer and go out and make your own fortune, found your own town, and then vote libertarian.

 

[Coredump]

Actually, the alignment system *does* pretty much preclude the possibility of cutthroat realistic politics, ... there would be "Detect Evil" ...

I don't think the problem is alignments, but rather Detect Evil. IMC it does not work on normal humanoids. It works on clerics, but only of higher level. So that 3rd level commoner that is neutral evil... does not register. The diplomat, does not register.

Besides, the diplomat/negotiator is doing the governments bidding. The *king* may be evil, but the diplomat may be neutral.