Why I don't like Wealth by Level guidelines

[drothgery]

I think if you're going to have a lot of treasure with significant game mechanics effects (whether it's magic items, divine boons, 'extraordinary quality' items, or whatever) in the game (which is typical in all editions of D&D, and 3.x and 4e make this explicit), it's extremely useful to have some mechanism to determine about how much of that treasure PCs are expected to have. It's a lot easier for the DM to figure out that a 4e 7th level character should have +2 weapons and armor by looking at the guidelines that to figure out when a 2e character should get them by noticing that anything in the Monster Manual that gives enough XP to make any headway on gaining a level requires +2 weapons to hit.

 

[TheYeti1775]

Wealth by Level Chart?
It's a guideline, a basis upon which to build NPCs, start higher than 1st level characters.
It doesn't matter the edition per se, not even system matters, that holds true no matter what.

What matters is are the players enjoying it.

I've run dirt poor campaigns where a good sword (+1) was highly valued when they were 8th level.
But I've turned around and done completely the opposite in rich campaigns where a +1 item might be considered to be left behind because of space issues.

I'm in a Star Wars game right now that by standards of WbL is blown out of the galaxy.
But you know what we are having loads of fun doing it.

In the end that is what matters most. Not balance, not how much you have, but the ability to have fun.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

Speaking only for myself, there is a certain level of excitement, or at least, of anticipation. It's kind of like buying yourself a new gizmo or a new computer game - you look forward to using it. It's not as humdrum as weekly shopping - perhaps about the same level as a regular, anticipated treat.

How much of that anticipation is coming from getting the magic item(s) as it is of going up a level? Because if you attach magic item gain to level, it just becomes part of gaining a level and the selecting of new feats, powers, spells and stat inceases that is level advancement.

Well, if all players are as reasonable as that, we shouldn't have the other problem of complaining about too little treasure, either.

To much (Monte Haulism) and to little (Scroogism) are more factors of risk/challenge vs reward. Scroogism is best illustrated by a comment someone I knew made about the rewards in Everquest: Slay a Dragon boss monster and your reward would be... 100 cp and a rusty non-magical dagger. Monte Haulism is best represented by a situation that could pop up in 1e: Hey, guys! I easily picked the pocket of that Centaur we just walked by and look what I got: four 1 million gp gems! Switch the two rewards and you have stuff that people have an easier time accepting. 4 million gp for slaying a dragon maybe a bit much, but few are going to say that the campaign is Monte Haul just off that. Stealing a dollar in change and a under-maintained pocketknife off someone is not going to raise any eyebrows even if its a little less than it could be.

Reward by Challenge guidelines are actually better at stopping Monte Haul and Scroogism than Wealth by Level.

I would argue that wealth by level guidelines do. Removing the assumed bonus from wealth by level simply imposes a different guideline: that the assumed wealth at each level is close to starting level. Under such a system, the "swing" in effectiveness between a character with mundane equipment and the best possible equipment should also be kept fairly small - six points (as in 4E) might be workable, but I personally would keep it to four, assuming a d20 used as a randomizer. If monsters are designed around the assumption that they will be fought with +2 equipment, then the character fighting them with mundane gear would be at an effective -2 penalty and the character fighting them with the best equipment would be at an effective +2 bonus. Enough, I think, to make the impact of the difference in equipment felt without making it either to difficult for one or too easy for the other. And I still think that wealth by level guidelines make it easier to ensure that each PC has roughly equivalent gear.

Sigh. I don't know whether this is heartening or depressing.

It's actually a moot question since I don't give out XP. All the PCs just gain a level after every adventure. The PCs take risks because the players think it would be enjoyable, cool, what the PC would do (roleplaying), or because it is the only way the player can think of to achieve an in-game objective. Conversely, the PCs aren't enticed to get into fights that they don't need to in order to gain an XP award (unless the players simply enjoy the tactical challenge of winning fights, of course - I'm DMed for a number of such players in my time).

Obviously I'm not Firelance, but let me take a crack at a few of these...

Our group re-equips w/magic items when they level in a similar manner, and to be honest, equipping our PC's isn't thrilling. But you know what? It shouldn't be. Our campaign is all about the nutty exploits of our brazen and quite possibly certifiable PCs. It's not about our stuff (or the stuff we find). The focus is on the PC's abilities, personalities, and goals, such as they are.

Congratulations, both of you, on having found a play-style you enjoy, but from the sound of it you are using a different set of concepts than normal. Nothing is wrong with that, but from how it sounds, if the system the system you were using did not have magic items or could easily remove them it would not change your play-style.

Sure, sometimes we miss the joy of looting that was ever-present in earlier editions. But our campaign is filled with a great deal of other, non-looting activity --note that many great adventure stories are not actually focused on looting-- so it's not a big deal.

I completely understand, but I don't like how wealth by level guidelines expect me to have peasants hand out 1 or more +1 or +2 magic items (or hide the fact I'm doing so with inherent bonuses) for driving off the orc bandits. Sometimes a hardy meal of rice and the knowledge of doing a good deed should be the reward.

Also, not everyone thinks the emphasis on gear in ye olde days of D&D is a good thing, where the question of "who is your character" was frequently less important than "what items do you have?"?

The same editions were wizards and other spellcasters were more often defined in game by what their favor favorite spells were? What you are describing is more an example of character/item power disparity.

You still earn magic items by playing the game. That hasn't changed.

But the reason why you earn them changes

Because taking imaginary risks is fun. Playing out the taking if imaginary risks is fun. Isn't this why people play RPGs?

Not always. While there are those who do want to take imaginary risks, some just want to explore imaginary worlds. Others want to play heroes, and still others want to tell stories. There are many more motivations for playing, including just wanting to hang with your friends.

 

[drothgery]

I completely understand, but I don't like how wealth by level guidelines expect me to have peasants hand out 1 or more +1 or +2 magic items (or hide the fact I'm doing so with inherent bonuses) for driving off the orc bandits. Sometimes a hardy meal of rice and the knowledge of doing a good deed should be the reward.

The thing is that D&D (in all editions) expects that your PCs will get a lot of magical loot (though pre-3e didn't give any formal guidelines for how much). And if you don't get a +2 sword for driving off the orc bandits, then defeating the ogre bandits that the rules now think are an apropriate challenge for the party will be somewhat more difficult than expected.

It's quite possible to design an RPG that doesn't feature a lot of power-boosting gear (and inherent bonuses tries to do that with D&D), but having classic D&D-esque game mechanically useful treasure levels without wealth by level guidelines or something similar isn't a good idea. That means game designers and DMs have no baseline to work with when they design monsters or adventures.

 

[Mark CMG]

You still earn magic items by playing the game. That hasn't changed.

But the reason why you earn them changes.

Do tell.

 

[FireLance]

How much of that anticipation is coming from getting the magic item(s) as it is of going up a level? Because if you attach magic item gain to level, it just becomes part of gaining a level and the selecting of new feats, powers, spells and stat inceases that is level advancement.

As long as the anticipation is there, does it matter what is the source?

Reward by Challenge guidelines are actually better at stopping Monte Haul and Scroogism than Wealth by Level.

This is a fair point, but there is still one problem with reward by challenge: the implausibility of attaching material rewards to all challenges. One of the implied assumptions of the game was that encounters with certain types of creatures, such as animals, should not be as rewarding as encounters with others, such as dragons. This philosophy led to the various treasure types in the earlier editions of the game, and the notation of which creatures had more or less than standard treasure in 3e.

In a more sandbox game, choosing to fight encounters that are potentially more rewarding was part of the challenge of the game. In a more scripted game, the DM needs to ensure that he has one or two encounters with no treasure for every one with double or triple standard treasure in his adventure, or otherwise work around it by (for example) having patrons who offer the PCs rewards for killing creatures that have no treasure. And frankly, in a roundabout way, this is starting to look like wealth by level again: by the time the PCs reach level X, the reward by challenge guidelines will ensure (assuming standard rates of equipment loss and consumption) that they have accumulated Y gp worth of equipment.

The 4E treasure parcel system is yet another incarnation of the wealth by level guideline. However, instead of focusing on the end result, it focuses on the "income" that a PC is supposed to "earn" while moving from one level to the next. You can even consider it a composite form of reward by challenge: whenever the PCs complete the composite "challenge" of gaining a level, they get the "reward" of the standard treasure parcels.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Link them and I will give an opinion.

I don't have any links. They're either in the DDI somewhere or in the PHB1/DMG1/DMG2 for 4th Edition. I just brought up the question because I heard some people complain about the lack of advice on how to run them.

 

[pemerton]

Do you give out the same amount of xp when the PCs run from a fight as when they win one? If so, what are the possible reasons for players to ever take risks?

The PCs take risks because the players think it would be enjoyable, cool, what the PC would do (roleplaying), or because it is the only way the player can think of to achieve an in-game objective.

Because taking imaginary risks is fun. Playing out the taking if imaginary risks is fun. Isn't this why people play RPGs?

I'm with Mallus and Firelance here in their responses to Ultimatecalibur. The players in my game don't take risks with their PCs because they envisage getting powerups that otherwise they would miss out on. They take risks with their PCs because that's what they chose to do when they signed on to play a game of heroic fantasy adventure.

While there are those who do want to take imaginary risks, some just want to explore imaginary worlds. Others want to play heroes, and still others want to tell stories. There are many more motivations for playing, including just wanting to hang with your friends.

This is true. But if players just want to explore worlds, or to tell stories, then does it matter whether or not they are provided with incentives to risk their PCs? Or if the worlds or stories they are intereseted in are ones in which risks are taken, then isn't that enough reason without needing to incentivate via items or XP?

Congratulations, both of you, on having found a play-style you enjoy, but from the sound of it you are using a different set of concepts than normal. Nothing is wrong with that, but from how it sounds, if the system the system you were using did not have magic items or could easily remove them it would not change your play-style.

The concepts that Mallus and Firelance describe seem to me to be core concepts of 4e, at least. I don't know if that makes them different from normal.

I don't agree, by the way, that removing items wouldn't matter on this approach. Players can still enjoy having their PCs gain and use items, even if those items don't form part of the risk/reward structure of the game.

I don't like how wealth by level guidelines expect me to have peasants hand out 1 or more +1 or +2 magic items (or hide the fact I'm doing so with inherent bonuses) for driving off the orc bandits. Sometimes a hardy meal of rice and the knowledge of doing a good deed should be the reward.

The way I handle this issue - which I agree is a real one - is simply to upgrade the PCs' existing items from time to time, following the guidelines in Adventurer's Vault. Sometimes I justify this in ingame terms (eg "Having all achieved such-and-such, you feel an infusion of divine power into your armour") and sometimes I just treat it as a metagame thing - the fact that the item has a bigger number next to it on the character sheet doesn't have to correlate to anything at all in the gameworld.

 

[S'mon]

For my next campaign I'm planning that new PCs start with all the base "+" items, as follows, plus a smallish amount of cash (1/10 earned XP) to buy other stuff if they want.

PC Level Starting Gear
1 100gp
2 100gp & 1 Level 1 item from list below
3 225gp & 2 Level 1 items from list below
4 375gp & 3 Level 1 items from list below
5 550gp & 4 Level 1 items from list below
6 750gp & 1 Level 6 item, 3 Level 1 items from list below
7 1000gp & 2 Level 6 items, 2 Level 1 items from list below
8 1300gp & 3 Level 6 items, 1 Level 1 item from list below
9 1650gp & 4 Level 6 items from list below
10 2050gp & 1 Level 11 item, 3 Level 6 items from list below
11 2600gp & 2 Level 11 items, 2 Level 6 items from list below
12 3200gp & 3 Level 11 items, 1 Level 6 item from list below
13 3900gp & 4 Level 11 items from list below

PCs may also buy both mundane equipment and any Common magic items (see below) with their starting gold.

Magic Items List for New/Replacement PCs

Level 1 Amulet of Protection: +1 to Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses
Level 1 Magic Implement: +1 to hit & damage – player chooses any implement type (wand, rod, orb etc)
Level 1 Magic Weapon: + 1 to hit & damage – player chooses any weapon type from permitted sources.
Level 6 Amulet of Protection: +2 to Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses
Level 6 Magic Implement: +2 to hit & damage – player chooses any implement type (wand, rod, orb etc)
Level 6 Magic Weapon: + 2 to hit & damage – player chooses any weapon type from permitted sources.
Level 11 Amulet of Protection: +3 to Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses
Level 11 Magic Implement: +3 to hit & damage – player chooses any implement type (wand, rod, orb etc)
Level 11 Magic Weapon: + 3 to hit & damage – player chooses any weapon type from permitted sources.

Magic Armour: Total combined AC bonus for the armour & its enhancement is as listed