'Why I hate 'Lord of the Rings' '

[Storm Raven]

I do get what you are saying, but don't agree with the morality of it. The realities of the ring sure, but that morality is f%!&@d up IMO.

One thing to remember is that any kind of violence, even if just, allows the Ring to wedge itself into your soul and corrupt you. Gandalf states at one point that had Bilbo killed Gollum when he found the Ring even though Gollum probably deserved death, the Ring would have siezed much greater control over Bilbo, and probably destroyed him.

Think of it this way: committing any of the "seven deadly sins" in the presence of the Ring allows it to enter your soul and corrupt you. Wrath is one of these sins. Whether that wrath is just or unjust, it is still a sin, and allows the Ring to corrupt you.

You may not like how the Ring works, but you aren't intended to. It is an incredibly dangerous thing to deal with, since, in many cases, there are no good options. That's the point.

 

[Storm Raven]

IMO if you KNOW something/ someone is evil and do nothing to stop it, that makes you just as evil as the person commiting the evil. So the blood is on Elrond's hands as well.

Except Isildur didn't actually do anything overtly evil at that point. He was killed and the Ring lost for millennia. Sauron was discorporeal for centuries on end and unable to work his will. Is that truly evil?

In any event, the point is that at that point in time, there was nothing Elrond could do that would not have corrputed his own soul and caused him to lust for the Ring and set himself up as the new Dark Lord (Elrond is certainly powerful enough to do so). His choices were (a) convince Isildur to voluntarily give up the Ring, (b) failing that, let Isildur go and hope that the job can be finished later, or (c) try to take the Ring from Isildur and either become corrupted himself or drive Isildur to further corruption at which point either he or Isildur would st themselves up as the new Dark Lord.

Elrond was unable to accomplish the convincing option, and chose the option of hope. Staying uncorrupted prevented the immediate erection of a new Dark Lord and allowed Elrond to assist in the events that later resulted in the Ring's destruction.

Say you had a chance to destroy someone evil, and you do not, then that person goes out and commits unspeakible acts. But your soul is pure becuase you did not try to stop it? I don't think it works that way. You did nothing, that makes you partly responsable.

This assumes that the "something" you could have done would have been effective. In Tolkien's world, when dealing with the Ring, the course you advocate would have destroyed Elrond. Basically, you would have had Elrond make the same mistake Isildur made, and have two powerful lords fighting over the Ring, becoming corrupted evil beings almost immediately. As I said before, Elrond chose to stay his hand rather than compound Isildur's error and prevented a war that would have only resulted in a new Dark Lord rising to replace Sauron with no one left to oppose the new evil. You would have caused this very thing with your rash and violent plan, which is why Elrond was counted as one of the wise, and you probably would not have been.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Oh well, I'm done with this thread. I just have to accept the flaws in JRRT's work.

 

[Storm Raven]

Oh well, I'm done with this thread. I just have to accept the flaws in JRRT's work.

Or, more appropriately, you have decided to accept the flaws in your understanding of theology and thre nature of sin in Tolkien's work.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Oh ye great and condecending Storm Raven. Thou dids't not notice mine winky smiley in thine haste to speak down to me.

 

[Storm Raven]

Oh ye great and condecending Storm Raven. Thou dids't not notice mine winky smiley in thine haste to speak down to me.

It's not condescension to point out the obvious.

 

[theburningman]

I don't agree with his tone, but I have to agree with Storm Raven's arguments.

From a purely Christian point of view, killing is wrong, period (there are no conditions given in "thou shalt not kill"). Even if you kill Adolf Hitler to prevent (or avenge) the Holocaust, you have still murdered. There is no such thing as lawful homicide from the standpoint of Christian dogma. Even if you later obtain forgiveness for such a sin, you can't use that eventual forgiveness to justify the murder. It just doesn't work that way.

The way I look at it is this. The only way the Ring could have ever been destroyed is the way that it was destroyed. Isildur had the chance to willingly destroy it and he failed because of the influence of the Ring. Frodo had the chance to willingly destroy and he failed because of the influence of the Ring. Had Sam been able to wrestle an invisible Frodo to the ground and take the Ring from him, he would have failed to destroy it because of the influence of the Ring. Thus the tragic desire of Gollum to possess it was the only way that the Ring could be destroyed; he didn't want to destroy it, it just happened.

So basically the Ring is destroyed because fate just works out that way. And that is the only way it could have happened.

When you think about, Frodo's quest actually failed. If Gollum hadn't been there, Sauron would have regained the Ring.

 

[jaldaen]

From a purely Christian point of view, killing is wrong, period (there are no conditions given in "thou shalt not kill"). Even if you kill Adolf Hitler to prevent (or avenge) the Holocaust, you have still murdered. There is no such thing as lawful homicide from the standpoint of Christian dogma. Even if you later obtain forgiveness for such a sin, you can't use that eventual forgiveness to justify the murder. It just doesn't work that way.

Actually from a Catholic point of view (which I consider a purely Christian ;-)... Legitamate Defense is discussed in under Part III: Life in Christ, Section 2: The Ten Commandments, Article 5: The Fifth Commandent (found here: http://www.catholic.org/clife/catechism/) and describes what one (and the state) can do legitamately in defense of the common good and life according to the Church.

Of course what would be more interesting to find out is whether or not such concerns were considered by Tolkien when he wrote the LotRs Trilogy... I'm no Tolkien scholar, but I do know he was Catholic and it would be interesting to know what, if any, Catholic teachings might have been used by him in his portrayal of Middle Earth. I think the idea of just war is certainly there, which involves killing (or preferably incapacitating) others to defend the common good... Anyone have a good Tolkien resource that might have this information as I'm sure it would enlighten us all on the themes within the LotRs.

Happy Holidays!
Joseph Miller

PS: If the moderators decide this is too religious then please delete this post as it is meant only to provide further illumination of this particular issue and nothing else. Thanks ;-)

PPS: I also think Stormraven is right when he essentially says anyone who tries to take the ring by force would never let it go and even those who recieve it as a gift are in a near equal fix as their good intentions would be used to corrupt them.

 

[barsoomcore]

So basically the Ring is destroyed because fate just works out that way. And that is the only way it could have happened.

When you think about, Frodo's quest actually failed. If Gollum hadn't been there, Sauron would have regained the Ring.

It's not fate. It's grace. And you're quite right.

It's one of the most important facts of the whole story: FRODO FAILS.

In the end, he is unable to willingly destroy the Ring. Only through the action of grace is the Ring destroyed. Frodo had to be strong enough to bear it to the Cracks of Doom, but nobody is strong enough to give up the evil that is the Ring. Only through grace can we be redeemed. It's one of the key notions of LotR -- that without grace we cannot escape from evil.

 

[barsoomcore]

Staying uncorrupted prevented the immediate erection of a new Dark Lord...

Right.

(desperately tries to control giggles)

Because no Dark Lord gets immediate erections from corrupted elves....

(fails, giggles)