'Why I hate 'Lord of the Rings' '

[jaldaen]

It's not fate. It's grace. And you're quite right.

It's one of the most important facts of the whole story: FRODO FAILS.

In the end, he is unable to willingly destroy the Ring. Only through the action of grace is the Ring destroyed. Frodo had to be strong enough to bear it to the Cracks of Doom, but nobody is strong enough to give up the evil that is the Ring. Only through grace can we be redeemed. It's one of the key notions of LotR -- that without grace we cannot escape from evil.

I just want to say that this is an extremely good point and goes well with Catholic teaching (more beautifully put elsewhere, but grabbled by my words of straw): That men (and hobbits ;-) can only get so far ourselves and only through the fostering of faith, hope, and charity can we put ourselves into a position to do the right thing... and it is God's grace that gives us that extra little shove to get rid of the evil that corrupts us ;-)

Happy Holidays!
Joseph

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I've come to this discussion late, but want to say a few things.

First off, Storm Raven is right on all points.

Secondly, in the movies it's more or less luck that allows Isildur to cut the ring off, but in the books, I think its more clear that Isildur (with the aid of a couple folks, I think) defeats Sauron in combat, and then cuts the ring from his hand.

So, in other words, we have one of the most powerful warriors in all of Middle-Earth, AND he's got the One Ring. Do you really think Elrond would have stood a chance?

Lastly, of course, (in the books) Isildur was nowhere near Mt. Doom when he (entirely lawfully) claimed the Ring. So the "drop kick into the lava" option was never open to Elrond in any case.

 

[Merlion]

Yea, I have to agree. Essentialy Elrond took a calculated risk. He felt the risk of trying to take any additional action at that point was greater than the risk of Issy doing immediate evil with the ring.
Ooo memory flash. CIRDAN was there as well(in the book). and it was outside the mountain. It would have been a THREE way fight for the ring. And Cirdan is also a Ringbearer, and one of the most powerful elves alive.
But yes even in the movie...Elrond runs at Issy...Elrond starts hearing the Ring's voice in his head...Elrond tries to take the ring from Issy...etc etc...end of the world.

 

[Merlion]

Which is an odd criticism at any level, since Gandalf was essentially sent back by God. Complaining about the hand of God being involved when the hand of God is supposed to have been involved in a situation is plain silly.

I thought the exact same thing myself. It is Deus Ex Machina...literaly! and in a way that fits the logic of the story perfectly. I agree this guy just has no idea whats happening in the story..

 

[KenM]

So, in other words, we have one of the most powerful warriors in all of Middle-Earth, AND he's got the One Ring. Do you really think Elrond would have stood a chance?

My problem with the scene in the movie is that Elrond does not do anything. Since they were right there, inside the mountin, it makes sense to me at least, that He should have tried something, but He lets Isildur walk away.
What PJ should have done, is had the two fight, Elrond gets knocked out, Isildur walks away. This would have also added to the tension between the elves and the humans. I never said that Elrond would have won if he tried something, I just think that at that point, that character would have done more then to let Isildur just walk.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

What PJ should have done, is had the two fight, Elrond gets knocked out, Isildur walks away. This would have also added to the tension between the elves and the humans. I never said that Elrond would have won if he tried something, I just think that at that point, that character would have done more then to let Isildur just walk.

Elrond can't win in any conceivable outcome of that battle. It's vital to remember that Isildur is not utterly corrupted by the Ring. He can't bring himself to destroy it, but he never uses it for evil.

If Elrond fights Isildur and wins, he claims the Ring, and it's Elrond the Dark lord.

If Elrond fights Isildur and loses, he's pushed Isildur over the edge to Evil, and it's Isildur the Dark Lord.

Either way, it's new Dark Lord time, right now, and the forces of good are likely destroyed.

Elrond does all he can do within the limits of honor and morality, and Isildur ignores his advice. I really don't feel there is anything else he could have done that would not have had disastrous results.

 

[Dispater]

My problem with the scene in the movie is that Elrond does not do anything. Since they were right there, inside the mountin, it makes sense to me at least, that He should have tried something, but He lets Isildur walk away.
What PJ should have done, is had the two fight, Elrond gets knocked out, Isildur walks away. This would have also added to the tension between the elves and the humans. I never said that Elrond would have won if he tried something, I just think that at that point, that character would have done more then to let Isildur just walk.

IMO If PJ did a pitched fight btw. Elrond and Isildur it would ruined that whole scene. Besides, if Elrond at this stage attacks, Isildur would only have used the ring and escaped, which would have corrupted him further.

 

[KenM]

IMO If PJ did a pitched fight btw. Elrond and Isildur it would ruined that whole scene. Besides, if Elrond at this stage attacks, Isildur would only have used the ring and escaped, which would have corrupted him further.

That is fine too, my problem is the lack of action that IMO Elrond should have taken.

 

[WizarDru]

That is fine too, my problem is the lack of action that IMO Elrond should have taken.

In other words, you understand that it would have disrupted the story and you understand that it didn't make sense within the greater context of the story as presented in either the movie or the book and created a whole new series of plot contextual problems....you just wish he had filmed it differently entirely.

 

[KenM]

I don't think having Elrond try something would have changed the story. The fact that he basically lets evil survive, when they were inside the crack of doom and then he blames men for failing is my problem. He knew what the ring was, he saw it already corrupting Isilidur, PJ should have had Elround try something and get knocked out or something. Like someone else said, that fact that in the books, that scene takes place away from Mt. Doom makes it work in the books.