D&D 4E Why I like the 4ed Forgotten Realms (and 4ed in general, for that matter)

BlackMoria said:
It is more a question of scale in relation to demographics.

If the Realms demographics was 2000 sentients, then you have a point - 1 in 10 people begin a 18th level or higher mage would be excessive.

I believe I heard the number 200 million being mentioned as the approximate demographics for all of the Realms.

Now that is 1 in 1,000,000. That flies in the face of the mistaken notion of a number of people that every small hamlet in the Realms has a archmage living in the village and has 12th level fighter barkeeps.

People who have issues with uber NPCs either overlook or don't appreciate that said NPCs represent a very, very small minority in the overall demographic.
Back in the 2e era, in the High Level Campaigns sourcebook, they had a guide to demographics, where they had 18th level characters being roughly one in a million (17th level characters were roughly on in 500,000).

I still use those general demographics rules. It assumes that only one out of 10 people reaches 1st level (in AD&D terms) or gets PC class levels (In 3.x terms), and of those only half have made it to 2nd level, and half again to 3rd and so on. A village of a couple thousand people might have one 9th level character, the General of a huge army of 10,000 men is probably around 11th level, and about one in 10,000,000 is actually "Epic" and has crossed over to 21st level or higher.

If you realize that there are hundreds of millions of sentients across Faerun, especially when you take into account the Underdark and the monstrous sentients not often counted in censuses, even by those pretty conservative demographics rules there are going to be a good number of high level characters. It is quite reasonable that if there are several hundred high-level people in a continent, they'll be some of the most famous people who have done famous things and be well known for their power and accomplishments.

Interestingly, by extension of those rules, a 30th level character (which was also the normal limit of mortal progression in 2e according to High Level Campaigns and Dragon Kings) is about one in 5.4 billion, meaning the highest level person on Modern Earth would be a lone 30th level guy. The highest level person in the U.S. would be around 26th level.
 

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I never played Forgotten Realms, and have no interest in doing so, even with the 4th edition revamp of it.

First was the issue of there being too many high level NPC's floating around, more suited to solving the problems that arise than Joe Fighter and his motley band. Yes, the powerful people in the Realms are being observed and their actions may well have political implications that constrain their ability to act freely. That's a standard plot device for why the more powerful NPC's in any game setting send lower level people on an adventure. It's fine to use that here and there, but justification of that sort shouldn't have to happen every time you send the PC's out to delve some dungeons. To me it doesn't matter what fraction of the theoretical population of the Realms is actually that powerful - the Dramatis Personae list for FR is too big, and makes it feel too crowded to allow more heros to join the club.

I never read the novels. Any player who had would automatically know more than I did about the world, and thus take away my freedom to play things the way I want. It makes it hard to use those NPC's in any way that doesn't fit with how they are portrayed in the novels. Likewise adding a non FR module to my game would be more difficult. Perhaps I need a peninsula with 2 warring countries and a mountain pass between them for Burning Sky. Where does that fit into the Realms? Without players throwing a hissy fit that the map doesn't look that way? (Depends on your players, I will grant - mine wouldn't actually react that way).

I despise the drow and all that they stand for. They are blatantly sexist, and a completely unsustainable and unbelievable culture. They'd have murdered themselves all off long ago with the inter-house warring, as well as sacrificing of infants - not to mention all the adventurers that come along regularly killing every drow they find. It's okay to slay them all because they are *evil*. They violate all kinds of taboos, so that makes them unremittingly *evil* and therefore it's okay for the paladin to wade through a city of sentient beings in an orgy of bloodshed, because they are *evil*. They kill their own babies, they keep slaves, they delight in torture. May as well make them cannibals as well, just to hit that last unbreakable taboo and show everyone how *evil* they all are. As for the sexism, there's a great article about it here..

Fine, so I hate drow. What does that have to do with Forgotten Realms? Quite a bit from my admittedly limited exposure to the setting. Drizz't is an important figure from that world, and a rallying point for downtrodden drow males everywhere. The Underdark and the Drow are pretty thoroughly woven into the campaign setting. Extricating them would be more work than simply making a new setting.

Finally, when I think of the Forgotten Realms, I think of the computer games I played that were set there. Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. Fun games that I enjoyed, but I have no desire to run my paper & pencil game there. That world setting has too many firmly entrenched events and NPC's for me to feel comfortable changing things around. I have no desire to read through a bunch of novels to learn more about the realms - I have plenty of other stuff I'd rather read right now.

Essentially, why I choose to not play in Forgotten Realms comes down to the fact that it's easier for me to make my own world than to change around something with the detailed history, rigidly defined geography, and long list of prominent NPC's that encumber Forgotten Realms. For those who enjoyed the novels, the NPC's, and the geography, then I'm glad you can play in that world. For those of us with no current attachment to it, there's less to draw us into playing there. To each his own.
 


I find the "Elminster Doesn't act because of stalemate/letting his guard down/whatever" argument very unsatisfying.

Elminster is the sort of person who does act. It's part of his character. Of course, often the action taken is more along the lines of "I will enable you to deal with these problems on your own because doing so will be a valuable experience for you and those around you" than "I will cast meteor swarm on your enemies".

And the realms are filled with high level characters, all of which may or may not have a reason to take action regarding a particular situation. Few of their motives or philosophies could ever be boiled down to "If I act, I put myself in danger or upset the status quo".

After all, you don't get to be an epic level character by playing it safe and doing nothing. You do it by getting out there and dealing with challenges and learning from your experiences.
 

arscott said:
I find the "Elminster Doesn't act because of stalemate/letting his guard down/whatever" argument very unsatisfying.

Well, okay. Thankfully it works well enough for my group and myself when we're playing in FR.

My point was that with some creativity a group can skirt around some of the drawbacks of sharing a world with many powerful NPCs while still being able to benefit from having them around when it suits the campaign. I don't think it breaks suspension of disbelief terribly when considered in context of the many things that players accept with the understanding that they're playing a role playing game.
 

Mephistopheles said:
Well, okay. Thankfully it works well enough for my group and myself when we're playing in FR.

My point was that with some creativity a group can skirt around some of the drawbacks of sharing a world with many powerful NPCs while still being able to benefit from having them around when it suits the campaign. I don't think it breaks suspension of disbelief terribly when considered in context of the many things that players accept with the understanding that they're playing a role playing game.

I think the problem here is that not enough was done in the FRCS to spell out how these high level guys are handcuffed and can't interfere.

The questions becomes, is FR worth the hassle for the DM as he has to account for this. I run FR in a casual way, I ignore most of the uber NPCs unless it suits and my players don't have a lot of FR knowledge so I am lucky.
 

Zinovia said:
I never played Forgotten Realms, and have no interest in doing so, even with the 4th edition revamp of it.

First was the issue of there being too many high level NPC's floating around, more suited to solving the problems that arise than Joe Fighter and his motley band. Yes, the powerful people in the Realms are being observed and their actions may well have political implications that constrain their ability to act freely. That's a standard plot device for why the more powerful NPC's in any game setting send lower level people on an adventure. It's fine to use that here and there, but justification of that sort shouldn't have to happen every time you send the PC's out to delve some dungeons. To me it doesn't matter what fraction of the theoretical population of the Realms is actually that powerful - the Dramatis Personae list for FR is too big, and makes it feel too crowded to allow more heros to join the club.

I never read the novels. Any player who had would automatically know more than I did about the world, and thus take away my freedom to play things the way I want. It makes it hard to use those NPC's in any way that doesn't fit with how they are portrayed in the novels. Likewise adding a non FR module to my game would be more difficult. Perhaps I need a peninsula with 2 warring countries and a mountain pass between them for Burning Sky. Where does that fit into the Realms? Without players throwing a hissy fit that the map doesn't look that way? (Depends on your players, I will grant - mine wouldn't actually react that way).

I despise the drow and all that they stand for. They are blatantly sexist, and a completely unsustainable and unbelievable culture. They'd have murdered themselves all off long ago with the inter-house warring, as well as sacrificing of infants - not to mention all the adventurers that come along regularly killing every drow they find. It's okay to slay them all because they are *evil*. They violate all kinds of taboos, so that makes them unremittingly *evil* and therefore it's okay for the paladin to wade through a city of sentient beings in an orgy of bloodshed, because they are *evil*. They kill their own babies, they keep slaves, they delight in torture. May as well make them cannibals as well, just to hit that last unbreakable taboo and show everyone how *evil* they all are. As for the sexism, there's a great article about it here..

Fine, so I hate drow. What does that have to do with Forgotten Realms? Quite a bit from my admittedly limited exposure to the setting. Drizz't is an important figure from that world, and a rallying point for downtrodden drow males everywhere. The Underdark and the Drow are pretty thoroughly woven into the campaign setting. Extricating them would be more work than simply making a new setting.

Finally, when I think of the Forgotten Realms, I think of the computer games I played that were set there. Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. Fun games that I enjoyed, but I have no desire to run my paper & pencil game there. That world setting has too many firmly entrenched events and NPC's for me to feel comfortable changing things around. I have no desire to read through a bunch of novels to learn more about the realms - I have plenty of other stuff I'd rather read right now.

Essentially, why I choose to not play in Forgotten Realms comes down to the fact that it's easier for me to make my own world than to change around something with the detailed history, rigidly defined geography, and long list of prominent NPC's that encumber Forgotten Realms. For those who enjoyed the novels, the NPC's, and the geography, then I'm glad you can play in that world. For those of us with no current attachment to it, there's less to draw us into playing there. To each his own.

I just have to say that I love this post... easily one of the best I have read on a message board in quite some time. I don't agree with all of it, but the basic idea that there is too much "known" about the Realms is the reason I enjoy homebrewed campaigns and settings myself. That being said, I do enjoy some of the FR novels (Salvatore particularly) but I agree, running a campaign in the Realms comes with alot of extra baggage... particularly if the action takes place along The Sword Coast.
 

BlackMoria said:
It is more a question of scale in relation to demographics.

If the Realms demographics was 2000 sentients, then you have a point - 1 in 10 people begin a 18th level or higher mage would be excessive.

I believe I heard the number 200 million being mentioned as the approximate demographics for all of the Realms.

Now that is 1 in 1,000,000. That flies in the face of the mistaken notion of a number of people that every small hamlet in the Realms has a archmage living in the village and has 12th level fighter barkeeps.

People who have issues with uber NPCs either overlook or don't appreciate that said NPCs represent a very, very small minority in the overall demographic.
Exactly so. (And thus is worth repeating.) Really, why do people comment about the number of "uber" NPCs in the Realms when they ignore demographics (along with the given XP system)? (That's a rhetorical question, BTW... I know exactly why, and it's not positive...)

Lackhand said:
I don't much mind, but I don't feel that people are overstating the issue, especially given the capabilities of high level characters.
I don't, since the above already makes it clear. Completely misinterpreting the given info (and then making up some more numbers to boot) doesn't mean people aren't overstating the issue, when they most certainly are.

However, I do agree that - for consumers - it's the perception that counts (even if it's erroneous), so that's something that is an easy target for changing.



In any case, I'm glad the OP is happy with the direction of the 4e FR. His reasons for liking it are the reasons I dislike it.
 

arscott said:
I find the "Elminster Doesn't act because of stalemate/letting his guard down/whatever" argument very unsatisfying.

Elminster is the sort of person who does act. It's part of his character. Of course, often the action taken is more along the lines of "I will enable you to deal with these problems on your own because doing so will be a valuable experience for you and those around you" than "I will cast meteor swarm on your enemies".

And the realms are filled with high level characters, all of which may or may not have a reason to take action regarding a particular situation. Few of their motives or philosophies could ever be boiled down to "If I act, I put myself in danger or upset the status quo".

After all, you don't get to be an epic level character by playing it safe and doing nothing. You do it by getting out there and dealing with challenges and learning from your experiences.
And then there's the problem of what happens if the PCs get closer to the level of Elminster? Are they also suddenly trapped in a stale-mate and unable to act?
If they are able to act, who do they fight? All the established canon villains? Or do you add others.

In the end, a lot of the problems for me and others playing FR boils down to a "perception" problem. The world seems over-defined. High level NPCs seem abundant. Players can have more knowledge of the setting then the DM, and this restricts either the DMs possibilities or the players enjoyment of the setting.

Neither of this has to become an actual problem. But it feels like one that might need addressing in my game, and that's why I (and others) will avoid using the setting.

And that's sad. There are a lot of interesting elements in the Realms. And now, WotC is trying to find out if they can preserve the good stuff while throwing out the stuff that creates the perception of the Realms being hard to use.
If they're lucky (or smart?), they succeed.
 

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