D&D 4E Why I like the 4ed Forgotten Realms (and 4ed in general, for that matter)

Artemis stole the life of a Shade and is now "part" shade in some way...i.e. long life granted.

As far as the spellcasters of the Realms, myself and the other D.M. for our group have never had a problem with high level NPC's. In fact generally the only high level NPC's we ever run across are characters from ours from previous campaigns.
 

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kennew142 said:
Mystra/Midnight is no more, and evil magicians no longer have to worry that their access to magic will be cut off just because the goddess of magic is NG.

I don't think this was a serious concern for evil casters. While Mystra could certainly do it I do recall it stating that it was taxing for her to do it. So it would probably only be something she would do if there was a Karsus wannabe looking for loopholes in the Weave. There is also the Shadow Weave if you want to get out from under Mystra's thumb.

Ipissimus said:
I've never really understood the reticence that people have over the many high-level characters in FR. It's not like, in all the world, every adventurer is going to bump into Elminster or Drizzt at some point any more than every character will bump into Mordenkainen or one of the Circle of Eight in Greyhawk. So why does FR hold that stigma where other settings don't?

I don't see the problem with it either, but I did at first. I think it's easy for a DM approaching a first campaign in FR to look at all the power groups and powerful NPCs and say "What is there for a group of PCs to do when there is already so much power lined up?" (I know that was my first reaction to FR). At first I just brushed it under the rug until I read a good article or comment somewhere that talked about why there was a lot of incentive for powerful factions and individuals not to act that changed my approach to it.

Take Elminster as an example, although this applies to most if not all significant factions and individuals in FR (or any world for that matter). Sure he could probably solve most problems on FR with very little effort, and certainly anything that PCs are likely to be up against for the early and mid careers with almost no effort at all. But how many people are watching him? There are plenty of factions out there keeping a close eye on what he does. When he takes action it is likely to draw attention to whatever he's getting involved in and possibly invite some form of action from a powerful enemy, either to thwart what he's doing or attack him directly while he's occupied with something else.

Eliminster is just one example but I think that's a good rationale for explaining why even in a world where there are many powerful factions and individuals around there is still a need for lower level adventurers, as well as why FR reality itself isn't constantly being turned on its head with so many opposing forces capable of casting wishes, miracles, etc.

People are entitled not to like it, but there are plenty of other settings out there that aren't set up with established powers like FR is. I mean, isn't the default setting that WotC are establishing for 4E one that would be preferrable to people who don't like that aspect of FR? Why not just leave FR as it was for those who liked it as is?
 

Because there IS problems that could be worked on, solved?

I means, I liked by example the world of Shadowrun, but you can be a fan and points still some problems - like the question of the anormaly high number of natives.
 

Natives?

In any event, while I'm not a big fan of the way they did the 4e Realms changes (would have preferred a reboot), I agree with the OP entirely; some level of fearlessness in implementing changes, whether to rules or setting elements, is a Good Thing. Ultimately, those who prefer stuff from older editions always have them to fall back on.
 

ruleslawyer said:
Natives?

In any event, while I'm not a big fan of the way they did the 4e Realms changes (would have preferred a reboot), I agree with the OP entirely; some level of fearlessness in implementing changes, whether to rules or setting elements, is a Good Thing. Ultimately, those who prefer stuff from older editions always have them to fall back on.

American (and other arborigen groups, to a lesser degree) natives, amerindians, etc... The populations numbers are weirdly high, irrealist it is argued - especially with the things that happened in the real story and the added bits. All linked to the 'power returning to oppressed groups' theme of Shadowrun, with natives nations and all that.


And agreed.
 

The Ubbergeek said:
200? Are you not hyperboling? :\

No. Though I might be slightly out. However, someone on the Candlekeep Board went to an enormous amount of trouble to compile a spreadsheet of all the NPCs from every FR sourcebook or adventure. They're listed on tabs according to class, and then by level. And there are approximately 200 entries on the wizard tab with levels of 18 or over, though I may have missed a few who have more than one entry because their level changed, and some are multi- or dual-class characters and appear on other tabs.
 

Mephistopheles said:
Take Elminster as an example, although this applies to most if not all significant factions and individuals in FR (or any world for that matter). Sure he could probably solve most problems on FR with very little effort, and certainly anything that PCs are likely to be up against for the early and mid careers with almost no effort at all. But how many people are watching him? There are plenty of factions out there keeping a close eye on what he does. When he takes action it is likely to draw attention to whatever he's getting involved in and possibly invite some form of action from a powerful enemy, either to thwart what he's doing or attack him directly while he's occupied with something else.

Eliminster is just one example but I think that's a good rationale for explaining why even in a world where there are many powerful factions and individuals around there is still a need for lower level adventurers, as well as why FR reality itself isn't constantly being turned on its head with so many opposing forces capable of casting wishes, miracles, etc.
Hey, I really like this explanation. I was a big FR fan in the early 90s in its 2e heyday but I stopped reading the novels around 1996 and then stopped playing d&d altogether and didn't have anything to do with FR until I was brought back into the fold with 3.5 back in 2006. I read through the 3e FRCS, I started playing in a FR campaign, and I started DMing a FR campaign, and I was almost immediately turned off it ... mainly because of the whole "too many high-level NPCs/not enough room for low-level PCs to grow" argument but there were other reasons as well.

If someone had presented me with this point of view sooner, I might have reconsidered. It makes perfect sense and I wonder why I didn't think of it. It's all about politics and consequences. Yes, you might be a super-powerful wizard, but if there are other super-powerful wizards out there who can do what you can do, you might not have the same freedom of action that you had when you were less powerful and weren't on the radar, so to speak. You can even take this a step further and draw real-world comparisons.

First, you can draw people's attention to celebrities. They're the "super-powerful" people in our world. They've got the money, and in many cases, the means to change the world, yet many of them don't. Why? Well, we don't know. But there's certainly the whole "living in the public gaze and having no privacy" aspect.

Second, you can draw people's attention to historical stuff like the Cold War. You could compare super-powerful magic like wish and miracle to tactical nukes. People have them but nobody uses them because of the consequences ... The point is, when you're super-powerful you don't actually have as much freedom to use that power as you might think because everyone is watching you and if someone else has the same power, they might use it against you if you use it against them and so on. Lots of politics at play here, and I can easily see it being applicable to the super-powerful NPCs/organizations in FR.


I could probably go on but it's late. I'll finish by saying that, despite all that, I'm actually finding the new Realms appealing. I'll probably get the FRCG, if for no other reason than to plunder ideas for my own campaign. I'll definitely consider running a 4e Realms campaign, though, whereas I'm not so keen on a 3.5 one.
 

Bluenose said:
No. Though I might be slightly out. However, someone on the Candlekeep Board went to an enormous amount of trouble to compile a spreadsheet of all the NPCs from every FR sourcebook or adventure. They're listed on tabs according to class, and then by level. And there are approximately 200 entries on the wizard tab with levels of 18 or over, though I may have missed a few who have more than one entry because their level changed, and some are multi- or dual-class characters and appear on other tabs.

A lot of these problems built with the formation of 3e. I mean the nightmasks were a small group of assasians and thieves taken out by a fighter and paladin. Then they turned into vampire mages. City of Shade certainly boost the number. However, realms is a high magic setting so cold war states and mages seem right.

I wonder if someone counted up all the greyhawk modules, setting books, Gord the rogue novels and updated them with a few extra magic cities how insane it would look. Just the demon count alone post war was silly.
 

Originally Posted by Bluenose
No. Though I might be slightly out. However, someone on the Candlekeep Board went to an enormous amount of trouble to compile a spreadsheet of all the NPCs from every FR sourcebook or adventure. They're listed on tabs according to class, and then by level. And there are approximately 200 entries on the wizard tab with levels of 18 or over, though I may have missed a few who have more than one entry because their level changed, and some are multi- or dual-class characters and appear on other tabs.

It is more a question of scale in relation to demographics.

If the Realms demographics was 2000 sentients, then you have a point - 1 in 10 people begin a 18th level or higher mage would be excessive.

I believe I heard the number 200 million being mentioned as the approximate demographics for all of the Realms.

Now that is 1 in 1,000,000. That flies in the face of the mistaken notion of a number of people that every small hamlet in the Realms has a archmage living in the village and has 12th level fighter barkeeps.

People who have issues with uber NPCs either overlook or don't appreciate that said NPCs represent a very, very small minority in the overall demographic.
 

BlackMoria said:
It is more a question of scale in relation to demographics.

If the Realms demographics was 2000 sentients, then you have a point - 1 in 10 people begin a 18th level or higher mage would be excessive.

I believe I heard the number 200 million being mentioned as the approximate demographics for all of the Realms.

Now that is 1 in 1,000,000. That flies in the face of the mistaken notion of a number of people that every small hamlet in the Realms has a archmage living in the village and has 12th level fighter barkeeps.

People who have issues with uber NPCs either overlook or don't appreciate that said NPCs represent a very, very small minority in the overall demographic.
One in one million individuals... is a level twenty archmage. There are another handful that are 17th level archmages, and a few clerics (here and there), too.

So maybe 1 in 100,000 characters is capable of casting 9th level spells, and maybe 1 in 20,000 is at-or-above 15th level. This is nearly certainly a gross underestimate of the number of high level characters, and is *not* a small number!

I don't much mind, but I don't feel that people are overstating the issue, especially given the capabilities of high level characters.
 

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