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Why I refuse to support my FLGS

... even if I did, I couldn't stand all the screaming and obnoxious CCGs and mini players.

Look- lets just shut that stuff down right here and now.- its a stereotype that is innacurate and furthermore, serves no good purpose. I'd be willing to bet a lot of those you were thinking about when you composed that sentence were kids. Kida are noisy and they tend to have a clumsy grip of social niceties...and I'm sure even your childhood included screams and spazzing. Like it or not, within that crowd of kids are a large portion of the next wave of RPG and Wargame players.

I'm 37 & play RPGs, Wargames, CCGs (MTG, Doomtrooper, and a couple of others), and minis games (Chainmail, Confrontation), and that makes me old enough to remember when wargamers and other hobbyists complained about the "noisy, obnoxious" D&D players invading their stores.

The hobby would be better off if more gamers were willing to act like mentors. Personally, I've introduced a lot of noisy kids to the world of RPGs, mainly because I'm a responsible adult that parents trust. They know I'm not going to expose their kids to something that would harm them, and I'm going to teach them to play the right way- including how to behave in your GM's/host's house, how to be polite to other players, table etiquette, etc.

It's easy for people with money to blow on gaming books/cards/minis to critisize others for buying at Toys-R-Us or Amazon instead of a FLGS. It's hard to support a FLGS when you don't even make enough money to buy your own house and you still have to pay rent and live with roommates.

You know, I have a decent income, and every penny matters to me as well. I buy huge amounts of game product- games, supplements, minis, and Dwarven Forge - and in fact, I often buy duplicates of books I expect to get a lot of use. I own 3 3Ed PHBs, and 2 3.5PHBs, 2 Arcana Unearthed, 3 RIFTS main books, 3 Mutants & Masterminds main books, 3 Hero 5th edition hardcovers in addition to having a bucket of die and shelves of expansions, modules, sourcebooks etc. to 7 main RPGS and some Core books for lesser games (like Talisantha and GURPS)- all so that my players who are less well off don't have to buy product to game in my house. I'm even donating game stuff to the troops. But instead of buying at Toys R Us, Wal-Mart, B&N or Amazon, thereby saving myself thousands of dollars a year, I support my locals. The ONLY time I buy online is when product is absolutely inavailable to me otherwise, and even THEN, I don't shop the big guys.

For example, my LGS's only started carrying Confrontation minis this year, so I had been buying them from New Wave Games. Now that my LGS's have Confrontation, I buy it from the locals. Similarly, most of my LGS's wouldn't carry a certain few War Gods minis because the nudity of those particular minis went against their store policies. To obtain them, I had to go online.

And I'm still young enough to remember when I didn't have a lot of dough to spend on games. You know what? I just saved my money until I could afford to buy what I wanted. Once I had the Core books, the rest of the stuff didn't matter as much.

I also know what is like not to have a convenient game store. When I lived in Manhattan, Kansas, the local suppliers (not LGS's- book stores with RPG sections) only carried the same product for months on end- no special orders. To get the latest stuff, I often had to go on a 1-2 hour trip to Topeka, Wichita, or KC. That trip cost money.

It is my fervent hope that LGS's DON'T dissapear. While it is likely that the Internet can help satisfy the established base of the hobby, it can't draw people in like a LGS- no one surfing the net is going to accidentally find a page and wonder "What's with the funny die and the little metal warrior?" and have someone respond "That's D&D little fella! Its a game that lets you pretend to be in those books you like...with your buddies! Let me tell you more..."

That was my initial exposure, and that encounter sold me on the game. A little picture on the web with a block of text isn't going to sell itself like that salesman sold me that game.
 

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Dannyalcatraz said:
Look- lets just shut that stuff down right here and now.- its a stereotype that is innacurate and furthermore, serves no good purpose. I'd be willing to bet a lot of those you were thinking about when you composed that sentence were kids. Kida are noisy and they tend to have a clumsy grip of social niceties...and I'm sure even your childhood included screams and spazzing. Like it or not, within that crowd of kids are a large portion of the next wave of RPG and Wargame players.

I don't consider people in their late teens and beyond kids. At that point, they should understand how to behave in public. It's one thing to have to speak loudly because you have several tables gaming, it's another thing entirely to be shouting profanity and trash-talking.

And we're discussing our LGSs, which means we're talking personal experience, not stereotypes. I'm the same age as you, and I can remember gaming in the library and not having the librarian tell us to *shush*.
 

I don't consider people in their late teens and beyond kids. At that point, they should understand how to behave in public. It's one thing to have to speak loudly because you have several tables gaming, it's another thing entirely to be shouting profanity and trash-talking.

That's true. I've seen the same behavior in the same age groups in music stores and other locales- our (American) society has seen a BIG slip in people teaching their offspring how to behave. There was even an article about it in my local paper 3 days ago.

That deterioration is so pronounced it was actually a surprise to me when my Jewler introduced me to his nephew whom he is bringing into the biz as a salesman/marketer. The kid...OK...Young Adult?...couldn't say "Sir" or "M'am" enough times- he was the model of politeness.

Manners have become the exception rather than the rule. On the other hand, even people in their 20's can still be taught. Personally, I have no problem dishing out a verbal correction to someone behaving poorly in public. I also firmly believe in the power of teaching by example...both negatively and positively.

I'm the same age as you, and I can remember gaming in the library and not having the librarian tell us to *shush*.

Ditto, although we WERE in the least used (except the rare books room) section of the library, so we were in no jeopardy of disturbing Conan the Librarian.
 

Yeah...what's wrong with these kids nowadays.. :D

A lot of the problem, I think, is that the CCGs and mini games are competitive rather than cooperative, and it's just one series of turns after another. It encourages the rowdiness.

Compare that to RPGs where you are nominally working together, and where turns can take longer and are seperated by long stretches of discussion, description, etc.
 

Could be- I encountered some of those same kids in the video game arcades, begging for quarters. Then, when some idiot gave them a quarter, they'd kick me off the game...because apparently, the only books they read are the cheat books for video games. :D

And I encountered contemporaries who sat across from me at CCG tourneys who were as rude as hell. One even loudly accused a buddy of mine of being a cheat after a particularly heinous top-decking loss. It was as ridiculous a claim as could be- poor sportsmanship knows no age limits.

OTOH, I know a lot of kids who are polite gamers even at the CCG & Minis tables...

Socializing really does begin at home...but the "Village" also has a big part to play.

I bet if there were more adult CCG players who would nurture THEIR hobby and teach the young guns how to behave... :uhoh:

I forgot- we were discussing American gamers. :\
 

Personally, my support of small local businesses isn't just limited to FLGS. I go out of my way to avoid large chain resturants for example, and eat at local diners and eateries instead. I shop at local bookstores (Joseph-Beth is magnificent if you're ever in Lexington, beats the pants off of any Barnes & Noble or Borders in every way) instead of the Barnes & Noble way out by the interstate. If I can get something at anywhere other than Wal-Mart (even if it's another chain like Meijers), I'll do that. It's just one of my quirks that I try to avoid "big box" and national chain stores whenever possible and support the little guy. This goes double when I'm travelling, why bother eating at a Denny's or Applebees when I'm in a new city, I could have that anywhere, I'll seek out a local place (or at least a regional chain that isn't present where I live).

Even if it costs a little more, I know the money is more likely to stay in the local economy, it is more likely to support businesses that treat their employees better (in my experience, I've seen big companies treat their employees a lot more inhumanly than small businesses, probably because there are so many layers of separation and dehumanization from the people who make the policies to where they are implimented and the people they affect), and it keeps my home city as a place with a unique character and appearance, instead of having the exact same resturants and stores that every other place in the country has.
 

woodelf said:
What sorts of discounts are you finding? IME, i can reliably save ~10%, maybe 15%, by buying online.

My last 2 amazon.com orders:
Dungeon Master's Guide II - Cover Price $39.95, Amazon's price $26.37, savings $13.58 (34%)
Heroes of Battle - Cover Price $29.95, Amazon's price $19.77, savings $10.18 (34%)

The money I saved on this purchase was almost enough for me to by a 3rd WOTC book (if there were anything that I wanted). A total savings of $23.76 which for me is no small amount of money. As for purchasing from other publishers, if it's not available as PDF then I really don't care, for the most part.

(The rest of this is a general address, not specifically aimed at woodelf, so take this however you want to)

The bottom line is if the RPG industry fell apart RIGHT NOW with no new product EVER again, that still wouldnt stop me from playing with the present available resources. I dont want the RPG industry to go away, but I also like the extra money in my pocket as well. I've bought my fair share of RPG product from my LGS thousands of dollars worth over the years, so much that I've wound up donating alot of gaming books to the local library. So I'm not trying to hear "buy at your LGS, save the hobby." I think that I've done my share to help keep the hobby afloat, especially for Hero Games and WOTC. If I want to save some of my hard earned cash then I'll do so. It's either that or I get out of the hobby. And If I get out that means my freinds get out, that means my son never learns, that means the kids and adults that I would have introduced the hobby to, dont get introduced to it. I do my part to keep the hobby alive and all these insinuations of behavior to the contrary (because of not looking at the BIG PICTURE or the LONG RUN) are kind of insulting. I've been playing since I was 11-12 years old and buying product since my first summer youth employment job at 14. I'm 33 now so seriously, I've done my share of supporting, I'm not STEALING the books. I'm buying them legitimately at a lower price.

You want to keep the hobby alive, really. Then buy my share of the books for me. If youre not going to do that then there's nothing that youre gonna say that's gonna convince me, and I'm guessing more than a few others that your way is the RIGHT way for me.
 

Well, I guess I see the trend of larger and larger groups of people working together to accomplish what they want. Call it large groups of people, or call it “big business”; either way they can almost always out compete the small groups of people; the so-called “Mom & Pop shops” for things in which economies of scale help.

I personally don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with large groups. I couldn’t care less about the inefficient small groups (shops). They are competing in a marketplace, if they can’t compete, they have to adapt (change) to a new market. They can offer new products, services, whatever.

I know this sounds harsh, but that’s life. If a group (shop) refuses to adapt, and tries to compete in a market in which they are inefficient, they loose. That’s it.

Now, I like small shops, I can get to know people there. To me, that’s an advantage, a “competitive advantage”. It just comes down to the question of if that’s enough.

To me, no. To others, maybe.

For the record (and my good name here on Enworld), I DO support my FLGS by buying the products / services for which they have a competitive advantage. I go there to game, and to buy paints. I like their coffee, but their books / gaming stuff / games are all too expensive. I don’t buy that stuff there.

It’s as simple as that to me.

-Tatsu
 

My last 2 amazon.com orders:
Dungeon Master's Guide II - Cover Price $39.95, Amazon's price $26.37, savings $13.58 (34%)
Heroes of Battle - Cover Price $29.95, Amazon's price $19.77, savings $10.18 (34%)

What we need, and I cannot provide, is an example of what a typical LGS pays for a DMG II or Heroes of Battle as compared to Amazon's price for the same product.

My guess is that Amazon pays WOTC (much) less/unit than the LGS because it:

1) Has lower overhead because it has minimal physical plant and fewer employees/volume of product moved.

2) It has the economies of scale that allows it to order in bulk.

3) It can negotiate a lower price because of its market power.

4) It can negotiate favorable terms in its contracts because of market power, and manipulate/violate those terms with impunity.

5) Amazon absolutely does not need WOTC (or any other RPG) products.

One could counter that Hasbro (WOTC's current parent company) has significant market power. While this is true, Amazon' annual sales of $6,921.1M eclipse Hasbro's $2,997.5M (source, Hoovers.com). If Hasbro found itself going to war in every WOTC vs Amazon contract negotiation-as well as all the other Hasbro products- its more likely that Hasbro would find divestiture of WOTC to be preferable.
 


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