Why I think you should try 4e (renamed)

[Minicol]

(double post)

 

[Minicol]

I think the following is more true:

Yeah you are right, that's what I should have said, and what I meant truly.

To each his own.

 

[MichaelK]

Like fighting eight year olds with pocket knives.

That's a lot more difficult than you might think. I'm not saying I've done that before, but I would be scared if a bunch of eight year olds ran up to me with pocket knives. Imagine how fast they'd be.

 

[Imaro]

I'm more with Rechan.

Kobolds are no friggin' joke. If they can threaten a 1st level 4e D&D character, they can slaughter a dozen normal humans before being possibly controlled.

They are shifty, tricky, trappy little pikers made all the more frustrating because they should be easy to kill, but aren't.

But they're only like this in 4e. My point was after playing previous editions, in my player's opinion, it in no way felt heroic to struggle in a battle with kobolds or goblins. Now whether you like the new feel of these monsters or not is subjective but it is certainly a difference brought on by hit point escalation of both PC's and monsters.

IMO, it's not heroic to be slaughtered by the scrubs of the monster world... but that's just me.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

I've always tried, as DM, to explain the game as a STORY, not just "you take 7hp damage" or whatever, so it's always descriptive, high adventure.
Thus 4th ed's ideas are great for me

Sure a push/pull etc may not be that, it maybe tricking your enemy into a ruse to get too close and making hin vulnerable, kicking him in the g'nads so he staggers or whatever.
ti's taken D&D YEARS ot get what I always wanted, those kind of tactical, fun, and really believable things rather than standing toe to toe just hacking at each other liek Whack-A-Rat! hehe

it's all about FUN in the end!

Simulationism sucks, SUCK big time, because it wastes too much time on mechanics and not on fun. Sure some folk love it, fine by me if they do, but most folk do not liek that at all, they want fun, HEROIC fun. Silly fun. Bloodthristy fun, etc.

I can really enjoy 3.5 on a computer game, but as a DM, hell no. Very very unpleasant to run it, too complex, I want to RP the story/game with pals not robots, and have a hoot with battles etc

on the "small enemy" issue

are you KIDDING that kobolds aren't a threat?! you ever been in real fights?
enemies with advantages are not ajoke, be it numbers, skills, pure meaness (guts), poison etc
toughest fighter I have ever seen is 5'1", he fought another guy for eight HOURS, every time he got beaten to a pulp, he'd go home, clean up and come back
other guy gave in eventually, literally exhausted and broke his hands on the small guy's bones. That relaly happened

Another small guy I knew KO'd, 1st punch, a guy a good foot+ taller than him, broke his jaw.
Guts, toughness and skill are not ever to be taken lightly.

D&D mechanics don't show the fact that any fight can eaisly equal death/maiming, it's meant ot be heroic fantasy.
But I sure as heck wouldn't consider goblins etc "easy" and have not played them like that as a DM
if they were that easy they'd have been exterminated long ago.
Creatures fighting for survival are not to be taken lightly, and ones that have survived will have evolved skills etc to make them worthy of survival.

"Tucker's Kobolds" !!

 

[RefinedBean]

IMO, it's not heroic to be slaughtered by the scrubs of the monster world... but that's just me.

But they're no longer scrubs, that's the whole point. Now every monster has the possibility of being threatening, even downright lethal.

 

[Imaro]

But they're no longer scrubs, that's the whole point. Now every monster has the possibility of being threatening, even downright lethal.

I understand the philosophy of every fight is a major, life threatening challenge now... I'm just not sure if story wise it makes my player's characters appear more heroic or more comedic (apparently they don't feel heroic taking forever to kill scrub monsters). And I'm also not sure whether I like it or not form a DM perspective...I don't know if every fight really needs to be a life threatening, drawn out slug-fest... but I don't necessarily want a paper tiger fight with minions that's over in a round or two. I guess I wish 4e had a better balance between these extremes.

Anyway, I've sidetracked the thread enough with this so I'll leave it alone from here on out.

 

[I'm A Banana]

But they're only like this in 4e. My point was after playing previous editions, in my player's opinion, it in no way felt heroic to struggle in a battle with kobolds or goblins. Now whether you like the new feel of these monsters or not is subjective but it is certainly a difference brought on by hit point escalation of both PC's and monsters.

IMO, it's not heroic to be slaughtered by the scrubs of the monster world... but that's just me.

I see your point, but I do think it's a fairly trivial point, because there's built-in solutions in the game. For instance: minions. Also for instance: re-fluffing.

The substantive points of high HP are there, but I don't really see this as one of them.

Perhaps my perception is colored because I always figured Kobolds were tough little biters underneath it all.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

it's all about FUN in the end!

Simulationism sucks, SUCK big time, because it wastes too much time on mechanics and not on fun. Sure some folk love it, fine by me if they do, but most folk do not liek that at all, they want fun, HEROIC fun. Silly fun. Bloodthristy fun, etc.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

 

[Ariosto]

A level 2 kobold? With 36 hit points?

Level 9 daily Thicket of Blades is close burst 1, for 3[W]+Strength modifier. Let's say (3x8) =24, +4 for strength and +2 for magic = 30. Not a kill yet, even with maximum damage -- unless it's a critical hit and the bonus roll for a "high critical" weapon and/or magic is enough.

In the old days, a 9th-level fighter could on average fell a kobold chieftain and his two bodyguards -- and a normal kobold or two -- in a single round. The rank and file would have been cut down at a rate of five or six per round.

And that's without a bonus for strength or any magic. Number Appearing: 40-400? No, that does not mean our man is likely to be tied down for forty minutes or so. Even if their morale does not break after the first round, he probably won't have to slaughter more than 50 or 60 to send the rest packing.