Why I think you should try 4e (renamed)

[Psion]

I've always tried, as DM, to explain the game as a STORY, not just "you take 7hp damage" or whatever, so it's always descriptive, high adventure.
Thus 4th ed's ideas are great for me

Wow. That's pretty much the exact reason 4th ed's ideas are not great for me.

Simulationism sucks, SUCK big time, because it wastes too much time on mechanics and not on fun.

Swimming sucks because whenever you jump in water, you drown.

There's just a bit of a chance that if this is why you think simulation sucks, you may be doing it wrong.

Sure some folk love it, fine by me if they do, but most folk do not liek that at all, they want fun, HEROIC fun. Silly fun. Bloodthristy fun, etc.

Well, that certainly would explain why Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen is raking it in at the box office while getting panned by the critics.

But I'll be happily giving that a pass too.

 

[Dragonblade]

If a melee proceeds at slightly less glacial speed than in Champions or Star Fleet Battles, then that is faint praise -- or none at all, as it was designed to take so long in order to please players who like it that way.

Putting the rules for a scenario on loose-leaf pages does not reduce their number! Again, if one's frame of reference is a game in which a character sheet can fit on an index card, then the relative heaviness of 4E looks a bit different than if one is comparing it with WotC's previous release.

Melee in 4e is faster than in 3e, at least in my experience. A highly involved 3e combat with 5 PCs and a couple appropriate monsters might take an hour to play through 3 rounds. In 4e, I can get through about 6 rounds in 45 minutes with 5 or more monsters even. Its faster, more players get more turns, and its much more fun.

Champions on the other hand could take 2-3 hours to run a simple combat with 5 heroes and one villain. Not even in the same ballpark.

Also, the self-contained monster stat-blocks and the PC power writeups are a boon to speed of play. Sure, if you compare page counts then the games might be comparable. But in actual play, 4e has consistently proven to be easier, smoother, and quicker than 3.5 play in general. Now thats not true across the board. Levels 1-5 in 3e can be quicker and easier than in 4e. But 3e also becomes an increasingly unplayable trainwreck once you get much past level 11. 4e plays well all the way from 1 to 30.

 

[Ariosto]

Simulationism ... wastes too much time on mechanics and not on fun.

See, there's a funny thing. (I take it your meaning is more conventional than Forge-speak, something like "realism" or "process modeling".)

The funny thing is that this has nothing to do with how much time is spent on mechanics. The amount of work it takes to play 4E adds little to simulation simply because it's not concerned with simulation. It's time-consuming and abstract.

Those are two independent variables.

you ever been in real fights?

What's it matter, if "simulationism sucks"? Make up your mind!

 

[Kzach]

But I'll be happily giving that a pass too.

But it has robots.

And explosions.

And Isabel Lucas.

And Megan Fox.

Who cares that it's not Citizen Kane? Hell, it's worth going to see JUST for the scene with Megan straddling a Harley!

 

[Rechan]

Who cares that it's not Citizen Kane?

I don't hold action movies next to Citizen Kane. I stand them next to Die Hard. If they can compare to Die Hard, then they're awesome.

Action movies can be both smart and fun.

Hell, it's worth going to see JUST for the scene with Megan straddling a Harley!

Yeah, I want to spend $8 just for that.

 

[Nightson]

A level 2 kobold? With 36 hit points?

Level 9 daily Thicket of Blades is close burst 1, for 3[W]+Strength modifier. Let's say (3x8) =24, +4 for strength and +2 for magic = 30. Not a kill yet, even with maximum damage -- unless it's a critical hit and the bonus roll for a "high critical" weapon and/or magic is enough.

In the old days, a 9th-level fighter could on average fell a kobold chieftain and his two bodyguards -- and a normal kobold or two -- in a single round. The rank and file would have been cut down at a rate of five or six per round.

And that's without a bonus for strength or any magic. Number Appearing: 40-400? No, that does not mean our man is likely to be tied down for forty minutes or so. Even if their morale does not break after the first round, he probably won't have to slaughter more than 50 or 60 to send the rest packing.

Level nines don't fight level two creatures, and if they do they're minions. The combat system works within five levels of the characters, it does not extend forever in all directions.

 

[Ariosto]

Level nines don't fight level two creatures, and if they do they're minions. The combat system works within five levels of the characters, it does not extend forever in all directions.

Ack!

So, if a fighter goes from 12th level to 13th, he gains 6 hit points, but ... when our 13th level character meets a young red dragon (7th level) he fought the day before (when he was 12th level), the monster goes from yesterday's 332 hit points to ... 1??

Does a group of 1st-level PCs meeting the dragon likewise turn into a group of minions?

But if the newly minted 13th-level fellow is in the neighborhood, then the dragon is also a minion ... so if one of the newbies can somehow hit it before getting hit, then scratch one dragon?

This all seems to me both a bit complex and very confounding!

 

[Eridanis]

When I saw the thread title, I was tempted to close this thread. However, the discussion's been good so far, so I'll leave it open; but please note that if discussion goes south, it will be closed without another warning. Thanks, all.

 

[Rechan]

This all seems to me both a bit complex and very confounding!

This all seems to me to be snarky.

 

[Luce]

After all edition changes there is a period of "growing in" pains during which people learn to adjust/synchronize their thinking with the rules. Once this is done players and DMs can go back to making an engaging story instead of constantly having to focus their thinking on the rules applications.

/not a hijack attempt
Now I like 3.X, but when it first came out it took me a while to unlearn and re-learn some basic assumptions I had developed from previous editions(mainly 2nd). The 2 main being:
One, monsters deadlines have changed for many monsters. The first time my players fought a mummy they were celebrating afterward their victory right to the point of XP award time. "we fought a freaking mummy not some sort of glorified zombie, right?" I had to show them the MM entry before they calmed down a bit. These among other monsters used to be much more dangerous.

Two, challenges were no longer as oscillating. What I mean is that the PCs were assumed to be able to face a wide variety of challenges. An example from Dungeon: In the adventure "forgotten man" (Dun 75) a group of six 6 level characters face both things like gargoyles and jermlaine and a 18 level lich. Of the former is not nearly as chalenging as the latter, but all encounters present some danger.