Why is 4e like World of Warcraft?

[Old Gumphrey]

Ok, here's the deal. I don't want any stupid flame wars in here, because my threads are awesome. Dig it.

Here's the cheese. I keep hearing people say that 4e is like "World of Warcraft", a very successful Mummorpig. To tell you the truth, I'm pretty clueless as to why. Maybe someone can help me out, because so far I haven't met anyone that can articulate to me why D&D 4e is "like WoW" or "Mummorpig-ish" without sounding like a troll who just doesn't like that they added in new races; but if you can do better, then feel free to chime in.

Just for argument's sake, here is why I think D&D 4e is NOT like WoW:

1. Characters of the same race and class are not identical. Even if, in 4e, they're so similar that they are almost identical (which I don't believe to be the case), they're still not identical. The single differentiating factor on a WoW character of a specific "build" is its magical items, or "gear".
2. PCs matter. In WoW, you are one of millions of "heroes". What is it the critics keep saying about "if everyone is special, no one is?"
3. WoW rewards PCs based almost solely on their available free time. D&D has a much more dynamic reward system that takes up less of your precious time.
4. If you think D&D has "magic item dependency" you have never played WoW. You are literally nothing without your magical items, and they are given to you based on both luck and time invested in the game, above any other factor.
5. I've heard that 4e is WoW because all the classes are "balanced". Well, I've got news for some of you: WoW is about as balanced as a tricycle with a tractor tire. You're smoking concrete if you think WoW classes are balanced. Even worse, the balance constantly shifts, so one month you might be sitting pretty only to be laid low to the ground next month. At least in 4e you don't *have* to use all the new material.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

[*]Characters of the same race and class are not identical. Even if, in 4e, they're so similar that they are almost identical (which I don't believe to be the case), they're still not identical. The single differentiating factor on a WoW character of a specific "build" is its magical items, or "gear".

Spoken like an undead rogue player.

 

[Siuis]

Well, I have since changed my mind about it, as I've found the giddy joy at having new verandas to explore (i.e. not having a group consist of fey-touched LE sorceror/bards who all abuse the sacrifice system for some minor advantages, or whatever the fad for powerful characters might be this week) beats the sense of... Well, loss at looking at the classes.

The reason it seems like an MMORPG is because each class role, out of the defender, controller, leader, and what ever the last one is, all seem to have similar powers. Every leader does an equal job of stacking bonuses and actions onto other party members. Every controller does an equal job of battlefield manipulation. Every assaulter (or whatever they are) does an equal job of being the spinning blade that the wizard wants to throw enemies into.

This isn't actually true, from what little I've played, but the big issues seems to be that, using the Player's Hand Book alone, the number of options for character type dropped from hundreds to maybe ten. And now, it is almost impossible for someone with a contrary streak to play a bard who is a better fighter than the fighter, or a monk who is abetter sneak-attacker than the rogue. There is no ability to escape your "role" in the party, and that smacks of being shoe-horned into video game-esque linear play. We will have to see how it goes in the end, but this seems, to me, why there is so much in the way of dislike for 4e.

 

[Shun]

For the record, I'm not a 4E hater, but upon reading the PHB there were a lot of nagging similarities to video game RPG's. WOW is a convenient target but I think the idea applies to many more video games as well.

The thing is, the similarities are difficult to articulate. But I would say that the homogenization of character abilities (ie. "powers") is a departure from the real differences you would find in characters from other editions. Granted I'm kind of old school, but when I played the most (AD&D) the classes were very, very different entities.

And with this homogenization comes the way you "build" characters by putting powers, racial traits, feats and skills into boxes just like you would on a video game. There's kind of a template that applies to everyone regardless of class.

(Side note: I'm just getting back into D&D with 4E and I find all of the verbiage on the boards like "character build" and "optimization" kind of strange. That stuff seems straight out of video games and not tabletop RPG's. In the old days, I always "made" or "developed" characters.)

And finally, it's the way that the initial materials for 4E are super combat-focused. This is not a criticism of 4E because it's very easy to incorporate role-playing in the game w/o a whole lot of rules. But the predominance of combat rules leads people to think that the game is just about combat. Kind of like WOW, where all you do is go from one place to another killing things, taking the treasure/rewards, and using the spoils to build up your character.

 

[malladin]

If you don't want to cause flames and deal with them then I'd suggest not calling people who don't like a game that you do haters. It's insulting, narrow minded and inherantly belittles the legitimacy of their opinions before they've stated them.

 

[Jin_Kataki]

I cannot really compare one to the other as I have never and prolly will never play WoW. I like to play characters that are not so strictly defined by their "class". I want a system where if I want to play The Six String Samurai I can. BY that I mean a wanderer type character that lives off his music and his ability as a swordsman. 3.5 can't really do this and 4.0 seems to make it even harder. They not only have a class system where the only form of cross classing is from what I understand is spending a feat to be allowed to switch "A" power they also try and pigeon hole you into the WoW like roles of leader, controller, and whatever the other ones where. Now again I may be wrong I don't really have a basis for comparison, but for my money 4e is of no interest to me based on what I have seen and heard.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Character Optimization and Power-Gaming definitely existed before MMO entered the stage. I basically do it since I started playing sometime in 2000, way before I ever knew there was something like MUDs or that there would be MMORPGs.

I don't play MMORPGs, either. Maybe they're good, maybe they're bad, but they are sure a time sink I don't want to get trapped into.


Is "game balance" a feature of MMORPGs? Well, according to some, they certainly don't achieve it yet. So, is it a desirable feature for MMORPGS? It certainly is.
Is it a feature also required for RPGs? I think it is. But not neccessarily in the way it is for MMORPGs. Any game that supports Player-vs-Player actions requires a special kind of game-balance. If my Fighter can't beat up your Wizard no matter how smart I play, then the game is broken.

But that's not what matters in D&D, where "PvP" is the exception, not the rule. Game Balance in D&D means that any given group has a equal chance to beat up a enemy group of monsters. There are some constraints that can be added to this - for example, not every group, but every group that features certain archetypes (like the optimal 3E party was Cleric, Fighter, Rogue and Wizard, not Bard, Druid, Monk and Sorcerer). 4E is going attempts to make this constraint both more explicit and easier to fulfill. Every class has one of the 4 roles, and if your party covers all 4 roles, you will be fine.

"Party" balance also matters in MMORPGs, though. WoW is known for raids with large groups. Something that just can never be done with a table-top game. It is important that all roles are covered in such raids, and that each character is capable of fulfilling at least one role.

Does this attempt to achieve game-balance make the game MMORPGish? Or is it rather that MMORPGs are a subset of (role-playing) games like D&D with stricter constraints on game-balance (PvP balance)?

---

An entirely different concern might be what is considered the "role-playing" aspect of the role-playing game.
MMORPGs are generally seen as to be light on role-playing. The major reason for this is that you interact with a static or a scripted enviromnent. Your characters behaviour has only a very limited impact on what happens in the game. You can choose your quests (well, at least that's what I hope), and maybe you're allowed to use some social skills occassionaly. But ultimiately, only a real world person - the DM in D&D - can provide the feedback to create a really immersive world. If your character insults the bartender, he might get angry and throw you out. And someone might hear of it and call you up on it. Or someone might agree with you. Unless this was specifically scripted in the computer game, it won't happen there.

Until an edition of D&D explicitly removes the Dungeon Master and replaces all "world-interaction" with table rolls or a computer, you will never have this limitation. Even without a DM, you could still achieve this type of role-playing - if someone of the other players is allowed to decide the world reaction, for instance. (Especially making him a "partial" DM).

 

[ExploderWizard]

1) D&D 4E is brand new. WOW has been around for a while. Give people a little time to play and discover what the optimal race and spec is for any given class and it will soon take over as the most played.

2) There are no PC's in WOW because there is no DM.

3) I will agree that any computer game can be a time sink. The value of that time spent is determined by the person spending it.

4) Both WOW and D&D can be all about the gear if you let it. In WOW if you are not a hardcore PvPer or raider then gear is less of a concern. With either game, you can play casually or be obsessive. Whatever a player or group of players find to be fun is all that matters.

5) You are correct. Neither D&D or WOW is balanced. The attempt at trying to get a perfect balance is what makes D&D similar to an MMO.

Computer game elements added to D&D include such conventions as aggro mechanics, the idea that every gain in level requires a dramatic power increase, the ability to get magic poop from "sharding" magic items, ect. From what I have heard from friends that have more general MMO experience than me is that thew class roles come right from the City of Heroes game.

 

[DragonLancer]

It's not that it feels like a computer game (sometimes 3.5 does too), but more that 4th ed being directed towards players of such games in the hopes of drawing them into the game. I'm not sure that it will work but hey, for them I guess its worth the try.

 

[Shining Dragon]

Striker! Controller! Poser!

 

[The Eternal GM]

Not a 4th Ed. hater... Just not as impressed as some/most/whatever.

4th Ed. does use many of the archetype names from CoH/CoV, albeit with different functions to that game.

The fact that 'class' which has always dictated function now also needs an archetype makes it feel MMO-like to me (or more honestly just dumbed down) since it seems like they're about ready to dispense with class in favour of archetype.

The abilities shared by archetypes ARE very similar. The wizards stands out because he's the only controller, the rest... It's more or less armour restrictions and nothing else. (no doubt millions disagree, so feel free to argue the toss if you like, but this is a 'in my experience' observation after playing KotSF twice through).

But most obviously, Video games are just more omnipresent now than they were at 3rd Editions launch. The designers have clearly put in aspects of these games and MMO's because they are successful and enjoyed there, they hope that it'll work on the tabletop.

The 'everyone gets powers to replace mundane action, required or not' attitude also remind people of WoW. The Wizard particularly does for me.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Ok, here's the deal. I don't want any stupid flame wars in here, because my threads are awesome. Dig it.

Then naming a thread with "4e haters" isn't a good start.

4e haters is not an appropriate term to use - it is divisive, aggressive and unhelpful so don't do it.

 

[Destil]

WoW is based on a home brew D&D campaign by one of Blizzard's senior designers. Metzen I believe.

That is why this topic always fails. They have it backwards: WoW is like D&D!

Always has been; almost all popular fantasy computer / counsel games can trace their origins back to D&D.

[I'll concede there's some cross-pollination at this point... Even though I'll shout the above points until blue in the face, the wizard class illustration made me think of WoW for nothing more than the insane shoulders]

 

[Twowolves]

Just for argument's sake, here is why I think D&D 4e is NOT like WoW:

1. Characters of the same race and class are not identical. Even if, in 4e, they're so similar that they are almost identical (which I don't believe to be the case), they're still not identical. The single differentiating factor on a WoW character of a specific "build" is its magical items, or "gear".
2. PCs matter. In WoW, you are one of millions of "heroes". What is it the critics keep saying about "if everyone is special, no one is?"
3. WoW rewards PCs based almost solely on their available free time. D&D has a much more dynamic reward system that takes up less of your precious time.
4. If you think D&D has "magic item dependency" you have never played WoW. You are literally nothing without your magical items, and they are given to you based on both luck and time invested in the game, above any other factor.
5. I've heard that 4e is WoW because all the classes are "balanced". Well, I've got news for some of you: WoW is about as balanced as a tricycle with a tractor tire. You're smoking concrete if you think WoW classes are balanced. Even worse, the balance constantly shifts, so one month you might be sitting pretty only to be laid low to the ground next month. At least in 4e you don't *have* to use all the new material.

1. Each class in WoW has three "Talent Trees", areas unique to each class that you can advance at each level past nine, each with tiers of advancement and you can mix and match each. Sound 4th ed familiar?

2. PC's matter, huh? Just like in the Forgotten Realms I'll bet. *roll* It's s MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game, you cannot have each WoW player be capable of changing the world and possibly thereby ruining it for the other million people playing it. When organized 4th ed play comes along, it too will be just as massive (well, sorta) and PCs there will "matter" just as much.

3. Rewards based on free time? Ignoring the fact that the longer you are logged out in WoW, the longer your "double xp" meter fills up notwithstanding (a device specifically to reward those who CANNOT devote massive ammounts of time to the game), try getting xp or loot in D&D when you don't devote any free time to show up to your game session. This arguement is such a non-starter. You can't get any rewards if you don't play. Duh.

4. Magic Item dependancy? Welcome to 1-3.5 ed of D&D. Time will tell how far this goes in 4th. In OD&D and 1st ed, a fighter was litterally nothing but a pile of hit points with out magic items.

5. You don't have to buy expansions for WoW either. And if you are in a campagin in D&D and the DM and all the other players but you buy the latest splatbook and use the rules, you can either have the new rules affect you or quit playing, just like in an MMORPG.

Seriously, if you are going to slam the comparisons between D&D and MMORPGs, pick better points.

 

[Casupaa]

Ok, here's the deal. I don't want any stupid flame wars in here, because my threads are awesome. Dig it.

Here's the cheese. I keep hearing people say that 4e is like "World of Warcraft", a very successful Mummorpig. To tell you the truth, I'm pretty clueless as to why. Maybe someone can help me out, because so far I haven't met anyone that can articulate to me why D&D 4e is "like WoW" or "Mummorpig-ish" without sounding like a troll who just doesn't like that they added in new races; but if you can do better, then feel free to chime in.

Just for argument's sake, here is why I think D&D 4e is NOT like WoW:

1. Characters of the same race and class are not identical. Even if, in 4e, they're so similar that they are almost identical (which I don't believe to be the case), they're still not identical. The single differentiating factor on a WoW character of a specific "build" is its magical items, or "gear".
2. PCs matter. In WoW, you are one of millions of "heroes". What is it the critics keep saying about "if everyone is special, no one is?"
3. WoW rewards PCs based almost solely on their available free time. D&D has a much more dynamic reward system that takes up less of your precious time.
4. If you think D&D has "magic item dependency" you have never played WoW. You are literally nothing without your magical items, and they are given to you based on both luck and time invested in the game, above any other factor.
5. I've heard that 4e is WoW because all the classes are "balanced". Well, I've got news for some of you: WoW is about as balanced as a tricycle with a tractor tire. You're smoking concrete if you think WoW classes are balanced. Even worse, the balance constantly shifts, so one month you might be sitting pretty only to be laid low to the ground next month. At least in 4e you don't *have* to use all the new material.

Basicly, your pointing out differences in a PnP game and a MMORPG. I think you are the one "smoking concrete" if you can't see that 4E is a big step towards WoW. If thats a good thing or a bad thing, I am not to judge.

OOT: Considering the WoW content, it is a very balanced MMO. 4E will never come close to that balance, and it shouldn't.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Then naming a thread with "4e haters" isn't a good start.

4e haters is not an appropriate term to use - it is divisive, aggressive and unhelpful so don't do it.

Dude! Pulling aggro! Awesome! Totally awesome!

 

[Doug McCrae]

1. Names of class roles. These came from City of Heroes. Not WoW, but still an mmorpg.
2. Better class balance. I don't agree with you that WoW has imbalanced classes, it's just the players are very sensitive to tiny differences, they make mountains out of moleholes on the forums. Ofc class balance is a feature of any good class-based game, not just mmorpgs. The real linking factor here is that WoW and 4e are both good games.
3. All classes have special powers with similar per use limitations. All classes are equally complex. This was a consequence of better class balance and the need to move away from the everyone-is-bored-most-of-the-time paradigm D&D's been hobbled by for more than 30 years.
4. Stickier tanks.
5. Everyone can do dps.
6. Wider level range. Going from 20->30 is quite minor mind you, compared with WoW's 1-70 (soon to be 80).
7. Sweet spot extended across the whole level range. Team game works across the level range. The basic WoW team PvE game of tanks tanking and healer healing works from very low levels onwards, practically the whole range. Prior to 4e, the D&D team game broke down at high levels cause casters wtf pwn, not to mention bbq-ing. In the 1e DMG Gary says you don't need other players once characters reach high level. I see that as a bug, not a feature.
8. Disenchanting magic items. Pretty trivial but I'm sure it was inspired by mmos.
9. The DDI. Unlike WoW the whole thing is tightly human moderated ie there are DMs but it is online and it has the same price structure as WoW.

 

[Shazman]

I would say that the main reasons are
1) Instead of casting a spell or swinging a sword really hard, you use powers. It doesn't get much more videogamey than this. Am I supposed to hit triangle +R1 to do my daily power or do I roll a d20?
2) Refresh times that make no sense. Why can't a fighter or rogue use their martial daily powers more than once a day? The same goes for encounter powers. Why can I only smack someone really hard once a day or once an encounter? This really feels like the cool-downs from WOW and other MMORPGs. Seriously.
3) Every class has a basic progression that is only slightly modified by abilitiy scores and feats. All the powers are very similiar. They do similar damage for each level for each class. The main differces are: I move this guy one square this way, he can't move for 1 round, or you get a +2 to hit him. It feels like building a video game character by picking talents from talen trees.
4) You are expected to play and completely shoehorned into filling one of the combat roles. WOW tank, controller, dps, and healer, anyone?

 

[neceros]

4E - Why is 4e like World of Warcraft?

It's not.

 

[Doug McCrae]

4) You are expected to play and completely shoehorned into filling one of the combat roles. WOW tank, controller, dps, and healer, anyone?

You're talking about EverQuest, not WoW. WoW is full of cat drurids, shadow priests and warriors who don't even own a shield.