Why is Arcane Spell Failure a "Sacred Cow".

[The Sigil]

Bonedagger

Don't have a DMG handy... care to post the relevant sentence(s)?

--The Sigil

 

[Bonedagger]

Identical types of bonuses do not stack....

Armor: This is the same type of bonus that a mudane armor gives a character. A spell that gives an armor bonus typically creates an invisible , tangible field of force around the affected caster.

I do see your point however.

So far I still say they do overlap. Haven't given this subject much thought though
(Also think it seems unbalanced if they did add up. Not an argument though)

Maybe there is something in the rule forum.

 

[Ziggy]

No. The keyword here is the source of the power (DMG. p. 177). The shield just overlaps the Mage Armor. Try and read the description of "Bonus from Magic: Armor" on the top of that page. Both Shield and Armor are of the type "Force".

From the SRD (my emphasis):

Many spells give their subjects bonuses on ability scores, Armor Class, attacks, and other attributes. Each bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and bonuses granted by a suit of armor and a shield used in conjunction by a creature, only the better bonus works. The same principle applies to penalties — a character suffering two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one

Mage Armor (my emphasis):

An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject of mage armor, providing a +4 armor bonus to AC.

Shield (my emphasis):

The disk also intercepts attacks, providing three-quarters cover (+7 AC and +3 on Reflex saves against attacks that affect an area

The important thing here is the type of the bonus, not the type of the spell. Mage armor gives an armor bonus, while shiled provides cover (bonus). Different bonuses stack.

.Ziggy

 

[apsuman]

Uller, let me get this straight...

You don't like the cost of a feat (ie Still spell) to overcome the armor problem, but you think there should be cost to pay for the ability to cast in armor.

At the end of your first post you mention feats.

You would rather have your feats instead of their feats?

I see about four house rules you could use here.

1, Offer a costly (so they can't get it until level 5 or so)masterwork armor that provides little protection, say +2, but does not cover any of the major joints on the casters body so it will not interfer with casting. So there is a very small breast plate, maybe something on the back crafted to flex with the backbone, some armor pieces on the upper arms and legs. If WOTC can fabricate two handed weapons and repeating crossbows, then this is not that far off.

Second, give sorcerers the ability to cast spells of the next higher spell level one character level before they know any. In other words, at character level 5 he gets to cast 1 third level spell (just like a wizard) but he does not know any until character level 6. This does two things, first he can cast stilled second level spells in that slot, and also allows him to create magice items at the lowest (and cheapest) effective level.

C, offer another feat (JUICE) that reduces the effective level of a metamagic spell by one. So a Juiced Maximized spell still goes off at +2 levels, but the juiced stilled spell goes off at +0 levels.

Finally, allow the user to hold a shield but not weild it as a free action, so if he is far from the action, Thangor is holding his shield but not using it for defense, when the enemy engages, he starts actively defending with the shield and casting stilled spells.

 

[KnowTheToe]

I do see your point however.

So far I still say they do overlap. Haven't given this subject much thought though
(Also think it seems unbalanced if they did add up. Not an argument though)

Maybe there is something in the rule forum.

They do overlap, this has been discusses indepth on several occasions in the rules forum.

 

[Bonedagger]

Yes. It seems like your guys are right.

Oh well. Imagine a halfling Rogue/Wizard 2nd level Dex 20 : AC 27
.... Before he goes defensively.

 

[Uller]

Uller, let me get this straight...

You don't like the cost of a feat (ie Still spell) to overcome the armor problem, but you think there should be cost to pay for the ability to cast in armor.

I don't like the fact that Still Spell is an all or nothing thing. I don't like the notion of having to cast spells as if they are one level higher just to be able to wear Studded Leather without worrying about ASF. With a feat like Armored Casting that reduces ASF by 10% or gives +2 to a d20 check, it gives you an option:

1) Still Spell: Cast in ANY armor with no chance of failure but all spells (with somatic components) are cast as if they are one level higher.

-or-

2) Take a feat and reduce ASF so that you can cast in light armor without ASF, but it is still there(although reduced) for heavier armors. Take the feat 2 or 3 times and it reduces it further.

Like Sigil said...it should have a cost. Using just a feat (and no modified d20 check) a cost for casting in armor is guarunteed. Seems fair to me...

P.S. The craftwand thing is good, but that makes it cost a feat, XP and gold and still doesn't differentiate between various types of armor.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Of course, the leather armor makes no difference (other than giving the shield and mage armor a 10% chance to fail) because, as an armor bonus, it doesn't stack with mage armor. Still AC 27 though (+4 armor, +5 dex, +7 cover, +1 size)

Yes. It seems like your guys are right.

Oh well. Imagine a halfling Rogue/Wizard 2nd level Dex 20 : AC 27
.... Before he goes defensively.

 

[Bonedagger]

Of course, the leather armor makes no difference (other than giving the shield and mage armor a 10% chance to fail) because, as an armor bonus, it doesn't stack with mage armor. Still AC 27 though (+4 armor, +5 dex, +7 cover, +1 size)

I know. I wrote so myself earlier. I just shoves that I need to get some sleep.

But as you can see I managed to edit it before you queted me

 

[Henry]

They do overlap, this has been discusses indepth on several occasions in the rules forum.

Just to be sure that we aren't confusing "stack" and "overlap", by the "type" rules in the magic items chapter of the DMG, the mage armor and shield spells STACK, because they are armor bonus and cover bonus, specifically. Force type has nothing to do with it - that is type of spell, not type of bonus. For the same reason that a plate mail warrior hiding behind a tree gets cover and armor bonuses, a mage armored wizard gets cover bonuses from a shield spell.