Bonedagger
First Post
Ridley's Cohort said:
I don't think they add up. Both force type.
Why is Arcane Spell Failure a "Sacred Cow".
I don't think they add up. Both force type.
The Sigil
Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
Two words... "Craft Wand"
Two words for ya... "Craft Wand." Take that instead of Silent Spell.
If I want a sorcerer who is proficient in armor, I *don't* make him a Sor5/Ftr5, I make him a Sor9/Ftr1. Assume for a moment he is a half-elf (to avoid an XP penalty). Such a character has accumulated 5 Feats... 1 at levels 1, 3, 6, and 9, plus 1 bonus Fighter Feat at Ftr1. I would suggest to you that this character has probably taken Still Spell as a Feat at some point... let's say level 1 for sake of argument... and if he's smart, has taken Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor and probably Craft Wand (3rd, 6th, and 9th level). He's likely looking to take Craft Staff at 12th level. For his bonus Fighter Feat, I would suggest that he take something like Lightning Reflexes (to up his crappy Reflex save) or perhaps Weapon Focus.
Now, let's see what we have... a character who casts spells as a 7th-level sorcerer (with the Still Spell Feat), giving him access to Fireballs and Lightning Bolts. If he needs his "big-hitter" spells like Ice Storm or Polymorph Self, he pulls them from the wands he has crafted himself. He has probably made himself magic armor and/or weapons. The guy could create +3 armor for himself.
Now let's look at him... +3 Full Plate and +3 Large Shield, ability to add Shield spell if needed, probably an Amulet of Natural Armor +3, with the help of his wands, has suffered no loss in casting ability. We now have a sorcerer who has an AC of... um...+11 from Full Plate, +5 from the Shield, +3 from Natural Armor, +1 from Dex... AC 30! And that's BEFORE he starts using spells to up it further... and the only thing he's lost is that he has to wait one more level before he can throw 4th-level spells spontaneously and 5th level spells with a wand.
IOW, do not underestimate the ability of Craft Wand and Craft Staff to help out your Sorcerer in Plate Mail. With these Feats, he loses no spellcasting ability whatsoever while in the heaviest of armor.
Let's compare some of his other stuff to a 10th-level sorcerer...
BAB... same
Reflex save... same
Will save... worse (+6 vs. +7)
Fort save... better (+5 vs. +3)
Hit points... better (by about 2, on average)
Spells... misses out on 5th-level spells... gets them in one more level and the 10th-level sorcerer has to gain two levels to get 6th-level spells.
Explain to me exactly how the Sor9/Ftr1 suffers compared to his counterpart?
Similarly, take a look at the Sor5/Ftr5. Probably has Craft Wand (again, allows him his full range of spells even while armored). Has a much better BAB than the Sor10 (+7/+2 vs. +5). Has 2 more bonus Ftr Feats (Wpn Specialization)? Has about 10-15 more hp. Has a much better Fort Save (though Will Save is worse). He's a better Sor than a Ftr10 and a better Ftr than a Sor10. How exactly is that bad or a surprise? He's chosen to progress much more slowly in magic in order to progress in martial combat efficacy. That's the tradeoff you make by such a severe multiclass (severe defined as taking a lot of levels in a second or third class). No way around that one.
Seriously, IMO a sorcerer is better off grabbing Craft Wand than Still Spell if he wants to be an armored caster. Again, the cost is a Feat. You also have the risk of somebody sundering your wand.
If you're still annoyed, check out the Netbook of Feats ( http://www.fancc.org ) for the Armored Caster Feat (also appears in Interludes by Thunderhead Games) - reduces ASF while wearing armor by 10% and can be taken multiple times. That means that using it once lets you cast easily in leather but plate may still be a problem. But again, the cost is... a Feat.
--The Sigil
Two words for ya... "Craft Wand." Take that instead of Silent Spell.
If I want a sorcerer who is proficient in armor, I *don't* make him a Sor5/Ftr5, I make him a Sor9/Ftr1. Assume for a moment he is a half-elf (to avoid an XP penalty). Such a character has accumulated 5 Feats... 1 at levels 1, 3, 6, and 9, plus 1 bonus Fighter Feat at Ftr1. I would suggest to you that this character has probably taken Still Spell as a Feat at some point... let's say level 1 for sake of argument... and if he's smart, has taken Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor and probably Craft Wand (3rd, 6th, and 9th level). He's likely looking to take Craft Staff at 12th level. For his bonus Fighter Feat, I would suggest that he take something like Lightning Reflexes (to up his crappy Reflex save) or perhaps Weapon Focus.
Now, let's see what we have... a character who casts spells as a 7th-level sorcerer (with the Still Spell Feat), giving him access to Fireballs and Lightning Bolts. If he needs his "big-hitter" spells like Ice Storm or Polymorph Self, he pulls them from the wands he has crafted himself. He has probably made himself magic armor and/or weapons. The guy could create +3 armor for himself.
Now let's look at him... +3 Full Plate and +3 Large Shield, ability to add Shield spell if needed, probably an Amulet of Natural Armor +3, with the help of his wands, has suffered no loss in casting ability. We now have a sorcerer who has an AC of... um...+11 from Full Plate, +5 from the Shield, +3 from Natural Armor, +1 from Dex... AC 30! And that's BEFORE he starts using spells to up it further... and the only thing he's lost is that he has to wait one more level before he can throw 4th-level spells spontaneously and 5th level spells with a wand.
IOW, do not underestimate the ability of Craft Wand and Craft Staff to help out your Sorcerer in Plate Mail. With these Feats, he loses no spellcasting ability whatsoever while in the heaviest of armor.
Let's compare some of his other stuff to a 10th-level sorcerer...
BAB... same
Reflex save... same
Will save... worse (+6 vs. +7)
Fort save... better (+5 vs. +3)
Hit points... better (by about 2, on average)
Spells... misses out on 5th-level spells... gets them in one more level and the 10th-level sorcerer has to gain two levels to get 6th-level spells.
Explain to me exactly how the Sor9/Ftr1 suffers compared to his counterpart?
Similarly, take a look at the Sor5/Ftr5. Probably has Craft Wand (again, allows him his full range of spells even while armored). Has a much better BAB than the Sor10 (+7/+2 vs. +5). Has 2 more bonus Ftr Feats (Wpn Specialization)? Has about 10-15 more hp. Has a much better Fort Save (though Will Save is worse). He's a better Sor than a Ftr10 and a better Ftr than a Sor10. How exactly is that bad or a surprise? He's chosen to progress much more slowly in magic in order to progress in martial combat efficacy. That's the tradeoff you make by such a severe multiclass (severe defined as taking a lot of levels in a second or third class). No way around that one.
Seriously, IMO a sorcerer is better off grabbing Craft Wand than Still Spell if he wants to be an armored caster. Again, the cost is a Feat. You also have the risk of somebody sundering your wand.
If you're still annoyed, check out the Netbook of Feats ( http://www.fancc.org ) for the Armored Caster Feat (also appears in Interludes by Thunderhead Games) - reduces ASF while wearing armor by 10% and can be taken multiple times. That means that using it once lets you cast easily in leather but plate may still be a problem. But again, the cost is... a Feat.
--The Sigil
The Sigil
Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
Thanks...
I also took this idea of "a mage 'feels' the surrounding magical energy" into Rifts when I played it. It felt quite natural that replacing parts of the body with Cybernetics/Bionics (artificial matter) interfered with the ability to cast spells... your natural body can "feel" the energy; your artificial body can't (something to do with soul, perhaps... lol). I created a 50 page-ish House Rules document detailing all sorts of enhancements and the associated "cost" in magic power.
Perhaps if I ever get the time, I will release a "Cybernetics and the Sorcerer" thingy from S.T. Cooley Publishing, detailing exactly how getting a cybernetic arm hurts a magic user... and showing why often technology and magic are not intermiscible.
But that's another thread entirely.
--The Sigil
Thank you for the compliment.KnowTheToe said:Sigil,
long, but well articulated and thought out. Good Job!
I also took this idea of "a mage 'feels' the surrounding magical energy" into Rifts when I played it. It felt quite natural that replacing parts of the body with Cybernetics/Bionics (artificial matter) interfered with the ability to cast spells... your natural body can "feel" the energy; your artificial body can't (something to do with soul, perhaps... lol). I created a 50 page-ish House Rules document detailing all sorts of enhancements and the associated "cost" in magic power.
Perhaps if I ever get the time, I will release a "Cybernetics and the Sorcerer" thingy from S.T. Cooley Publishing, detailing exactly how getting a cybernetic arm hurts a magic user... and showing why often technology and magic are not intermiscible.
But that's another thread entirely.
--The Sigil
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Bonedagger said:
Mage Armor grants an armor bonus. Shield grants a cover bonus. Those certainly add up.
Give the wiz a +2 Dex mod and you have a 23 AC. Any other 1st level character would be proud to have an 18 AC.
The Sigil
Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
Um...
Mage Armor provides a +4 armor bonus to AC. That's an Armor Bonus so it does not stack with Plate Mail, Leather armor, or whatever else the character may have. IOW, you have a Chain Shirt with no ASF or Armor Check Penalty and which also protects vs. incorporeal creatures.
Shield provides a +7 cover bonus to AC (vs. attacks from half the battlefield) by providing 75% cover. That means that against affected attacks, the character gains a +7 bonus that stacks with armor, mundane shields, natural armor, dexterity, and so forth, but NOT with mundane cover. So a character who was in 90% cover to begin with gains no bonus.
In short...
Mage Armor - Armor Bonus
Shield - Cover Bonus
These bonuses stack with each other, but not with existing armor or cover bonuses the character may have. That both are made of Force is not an issue... both your armor and shield are made of steel, right?
--The Sigil
The Force subtype doesn't matter... it's the type of bonus they provide that is important.Bonedagger said:
Mage Armor provides a +4 armor bonus to AC. That's an Armor Bonus so it does not stack with Plate Mail, Leather armor, or whatever else the character may have. IOW, you have a Chain Shirt with no ASF or Armor Check Penalty and which also protects vs. incorporeal creatures.
Shield provides a +7 cover bonus to AC (vs. attacks from half the battlefield) by providing 75% cover. That means that against affected attacks, the character gains a +7 bonus that stacks with armor, mundane shields, natural armor, dexterity, and so forth, but NOT with mundane cover. So a character who was in 90% cover to begin with gains no bonus.
In short...
Mage Armor - Armor Bonus
Shield - Cover Bonus
These bonuses stack with each other, but not with existing armor or cover bonuses the character may have. That both are made of Force is not an issue... both your armor and shield are made of steel, right?
--The Sigil
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Tsyr said:
The boldest statement that the 2e PHB ever made was that armor absolutely does not block magical energy.
Shall we consider the source?
The Sigil
Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
Chuckles...
One of my favorite things about talking about the "nature of magic" is that pretty much any theory you come up with has been contradicted somewhere in some TSR/WotC product.
In my training as a physicist, this (when something directly contradicts itself) is what is called, "bad data." The trick then becomes figuring out what part of the body of work is "bad data" and needs to be "thrown out."
In my opinion, that statement is bad data and needs to be thrown out. Then again, perhaps I am just labelling it bad because I don't like it because it doesn't fit my hypothesis. But see my "adamantine/adamantite/adamantium" thread in the Rules section for the way I prefer to determine "bad data." http://test.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12885
Specifically, I threw out stuff from "Drow of the Underdark" because given information in the 3e DMG, "Dwarves Deep," and relatively simple mathematics, it was WAY out of line with every other reference (and common sense).
--The Sigil
Edit: Added link...http://test.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12885
It may be true, but then it makes things feel REAL arbitrary, doesn't it?Tsyr said:
One of my favorite things about talking about the "nature of magic" is that pretty much any theory you come up with has been contradicted somewhere in some TSR/WotC product.
In my training as a physicist, this (when something directly contradicts itself) is what is called, "bad data." The trick then becomes figuring out what part of the body of work is "bad data" and needs to be "thrown out."
In my opinion, that statement is bad data and needs to be thrown out. Then again, perhaps I am just labelling it bad because I don't like it because it doesn't fit my hypothesis.
But see my "adamantine/adamantite/adamantium" thread in the Rules section for the way I prefer to determine "bad data." http://test.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12885Specifically, I threw out stuff from "Drow of the Underdark" because given information in the 3e DMG, "Dwarves Deep," and relatively simple mathematics, it was WAY out of line with every other reference (and common sense).
--The Sigil
Edit: Added link...http://test.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12885
Last edited:
Bonedagger
First Post
Ridley's Cohort said:
No. The keyword here is the source of the power (DMG. p. 177). The shield just overlaps the Mage Armor. Try and read the description of "Bonus from Magic: Armor" on the top of that page. Both Shield and Armor are of the type "Force".
Uller
Adventurer
Wandering too much into rules...let's wander back out again(I know...we're discussing a rule...so it's hard to stay away from that aspect).
The POV that iron(and therefore armor) has some anti-magic properties, whether it is a divine source(Magic is bad and good knights wear armor) or pseudoscientific(magic is blocked by metal, like radiation), is probably the most sensible take on the whole thing, and as has been pointed out, it has roots beyond D&D(religion, mythology, science, etc.). So I can accept that.
Back to rules, I am actually leaning towards keeping ASF as is and just including a feat as has been mentioned. I had already included a feat as part of my house-rule, but using JUST the feat keeps things simple. The more feats you use, the greater your ability to cast in armor...good trade off and not unbalancing, IMO. With my house rule, almost all bards(who usually have a decent dex), and even many wizards and sorcerers, would be able to cast in light armor with no penalty...there is no trade off there and that's probably bad...
The POV that iron(and therefore armor) has some anti-magic properties, whether it is a divine source(Magic is bad and good knights wear armor) or pseudoscientific(magic is blocked by metal, like radiation), is probably the most sensible take on the whole thing, and as has been pointed out, it has roots beyond D&D(religion, mythology, science, etc.). So I can accept that.
Back to rules, I am actually leaning towards keeping ASF as is and just including a feat as has been mentioned. I had already included a feat as part of my house-rule, but using JUST the feat keeps things simple. The more feats you use, the greater your ability to cast in armor...good trade off and not unbalancing, IMO. With my house rule, almost all bards(who usually have a decent dex), and even many wizards and sorcerers, would be able to cast in light armor with no penalty...there is no trade off there and that's probably bad...
Similar Threads
