D&D 5E Why is Hoard of the Dragon Queen such a bad adventure?

[KarinsDad]

This group started by attacking everything they found. Head to head and with no thought. After the fourth encounter and second group of kobolds they retreated (carrying two of the five) out of the village found a vantage point and watched the cultists systematically loot and murder. They had two rogues and neither actually tried to hide let alone scout. In retrospect it was a mercy that they didn't try to make it to the keep. They might have tried to nick it.

In the entire, excruciating three hours of it (the first encounter, 2 cultists and 4 kobolds, took an hour!) I think I was asked what they could see twice, and both times it was because they wanted to know if they could see the dragon from the hill. Two of them had chosen one of their bonds to be having family in Greenest.

Having actually read the rules, one of them doesn't want to play because you can't get a sword higher than +3 (this is a 45 year old lawyer) and another is upset because one of the fighters wants to be a Eldritch Knight ( a thirty something mother of three who wants her wizard to be special).

Given all of that I really don't think the adventure was the problem.

Also, given the sample size, it could only be 0%, 33%, 67% or 100%. Not sure of your point there.

Was this Encounters, or a group of players who often played in the past together?

Regardless, D&D is meant to be fun. If a given group likes to attack bad guys, I don't see what the problem is unless HotDQ does not meet their needs.


As to the Eldritch Knight comment, there is a certain level of truth to that. It's hard for a Wizard to be special when Bards, Rogues, and Fighters can often have the same spells (let alone Sorcerers and Warlocks, but that is more understandable), but the Wizard has fewer hit points, lower AC, and weaker base attacks. Seriously. Both Rogues and Fighters can have the Shield spell. WTH? As limited as it is at a single round, the Shield spell is one of the best Oops spells in the game and the heavy hitter Rogues and Fighters can get it at fairly low level.

5E does have a lot of semi-spell caster elements to it that water down the low level pure spell casters a bit. Granted, as DM, you need to let your player know that this is a temporary situation. At about level 5 (about 26 encounters in), Wizards finally start to shine. She just has to bide her time (something that some players do not want to do and to some extent, justifiably so).

 

[Kaychsea]

Was this Encounters, or a group of players who often played in the past together?

Regardless, D&D is meant to be fun. If a given group likes to attack bad guys, I don't see what the problem is unless HotDQ does not meet their needs.

They play together, mostly Pathfinder. I ran it as a favour so they could get a feel for 5e.

You've been through the opening scenes in Greenest. Attacking anything that moves without any plan is a quick path to a kobold's larder.

As to the Eldritch Knight comment, there is a certain level of truth to that. It's hard for a Wizard to be special ...snip...

Really? You feel that your wizard is somehow lessened because other people can cast spells? It's the kind of thing I'd expect from a game of My Little Pony rather than D&D. But this has been harangued to death in other threads.

The overall impression I got (don't get me started on how much the cleric moaned) was that it had been a while since any of them had played a low level, let alone 1st level, character, they expected to be able to wade through everything in front of them. The kobolds scared the willies out of them, not that I blame them for that, but they never, not once, tried to gain an advantage through anything but brute force. As they were outnumbered in all four fights their faith in this as a tactic was almost endearing. Their insistence that this couldn't be what it was like, less so.

It was extreme but it's an example of how player expectation can impact their chances of survival. Of the other two groups we had fatalities getting to the keep. I gave them the option of reskinning their character if they really wanted to keep it or creating something different and starting them from the keep when the party made it. Both groups liked Greenest and the camp. One is now on chapter four, the other on a sidequest for the Harpers on the way to Neverwinter. Neither have complained so far.

 

[KarinsDad]

They play together, mostly Pathfinder. I ran it as a favour so they could get a feel for 5e.

You've been through the opening scenes in Greenest. Attacking anything that moves without any plan is a quick path to a kobold's larder.

We did that. But, we did it with Stealth and a 6 party team, so success was possible. We also took on the Half Dragon as a team and beat it, but just barely and because the DM gave us some archers on the keep walls.

Really? You feel that your wizard is somehow lessened because other people can cast spells? It's the kind of thing I'd expect from a game of My Little Pony rather than D&D. But this has been harangued to death in other threads.

Well, ignoring your snarkiness, yes, there is some truth to the fact that other classes can cast a few of the BEST Wizard spells. It's not a matter of casting spells, it's a matter of taking the Wizard signature spells and handing them out to other classes. Our party Bard can cast Sleep. The best offensive 1st level spell a low level Wizard can cast. There is actually very little design love for low level Wizards. At higher levels, sure. No problem there.

The overall impression I got (don't get me started on how much the cleric moaned) was that it had been a while since any of them had played a low level, let alone 1st level, character, they expected to be able to wade through everything in front of them. The kobolds scared the willies out of them, not that I blame them for that, but they never, not once, tried to gain an advantage through anything but brute force. As they were outnumbered in all four fights their faith in this as a tactic was almost endearing. Their insistence that this couldn't be what it was like, less so.

It was extreme but it's an example of how player expectation can impact their chances of survival. Of the other two groups we had fatalities getting to the keep. I gave them the option of reskinning their character if they really wanted to keep it or creating something different and starting them from the keep when the party made it. Both groups liked Greenest and the camp. One is now on chapter four, the other on a sidequest for the Harpers on the way to Neverwinter. Neither have complained so far.

There is no doubt in my mind that if our group had not played two levels of LMoP as a playtest, that what happened to your group could easily have happened to our group. Having that playtest experience, though, let us know that low level 5E is hazardous and stealth is a premium skill for low level.

Blaming experienced D&D players for a bad experience, though, is kind of like your "My Little Pony" comment. It seems a bit harsh. Blaming the players of a given style because the game system doesn't quite support that style as much anymore. Meh.

 

[pemerton]

I think that the railroad is the fact that there is a part where the DM can have the dragon attack the keep while the characters are inside and if the characters do enough damage (25 hp) it flies away.

I do think the initial setup is somewhat problematic as written, because so much of the first chapter does build on the assumption that the PCs will enter a town currently under dragon attack, a course of action which really isn't the most sensible. It would probably have been better to have the PCs start in the town, and be awoken in the night by the arrival of the attacking force.

But that really would have been a railroad

I don't see the railroad in either of these situations.

How is the GM deciding that a dragon attacks a railroad? Isn't it the GM's job to decide the actions of NPCs? And how would this invalidate any choices made by the players for their PCs?

 

[Kaychsea]

Blaming experienced D&D players for a bad experience, though, is kind of like your "My Little Pony" comment. It seems a bit harsh. Blaming the players of a given style because the game system doesn't quite support that style as much anymore. Meh.

They wanted to get a feel for a system that was blatantly different from the one they played. So they played the session in precisely the same way they normally do with much higher levelled characters. They effectively ran out of steam against four random encounters in a battle zone by doing nothing but bloody minded attack, then sat on a hill dragon spotting until it got light. No keep. No dragon attack. No half dragon duel. Nothing that people complain most about. And they still don't like an adventure they had no engagement with.

If I decided I don't like chess because I don't do anything but march my pawns up the board I would expect to be laughed at.

With the wizard thing, I don't get it. Mostly I don't get it because the wizard's schtick isn't really the thunderous fireball any more, there's a good argument to be made that this hasn't really been the case since 3e. The good stuff is his utility outside combat as much as in. Ritual is his friend. The thing that grated most in this case was that it was a fighter that could be casting spells. She was OK with the bard, because they always have (although she might not have realised how much this has been enhanced) but the fighter? That was her main point. She didn't like the idea of the Arcane Trickster for pretty much the same reason.

 

[KarinsDad]

They wanted to get a feel for a system that was blatantly different from the one they played. So they played the session in precisely the same way they normally do with much higher levelled characters. They effectively ran out of steam against four random encounters in a battle zone by doing nothing but bloody minded attack, then sat on a hill dragon spotting until it got light. No keep. No dragon attack. No half dragon duel. Nothing that people complain most about. And they still don't like an adventure they had no engagement with.

If I decided I don't like chess because I don't do anything but march my pawns up the board I would expect to be laughed at.

Poor analogy. A better analogy is that I like regular chess, but I don't like Fischer chess because most of my opening playing strength is lost.

And actually, you found that to be a problem with the players. I consider that it might also be a problem with the module. Players with this play style (which my group does on occasion) will find a similar outcome as the one you describe. You blaming the players without giving any credit to the module or 5E design is like saying that poor people are poor because they don't make the proper decisions in our modern world. That is one reason why they might be poor, but there are often other factors. In this case, the module and the 5E design (and possibly even the DM, a different DM might have gotten a different result from the same players and the same module).

With the wizard thing, I don't get it. Mostly I don't get it because the wizard's schtick isn't really the thunderous fireball any more, there's a good argument to be made that this hasn't really been the case since 3e. The good stuff is his utility outside combat as much as in. Ritual is his friend. The thing that grated most in this case was that it was a fighter that could be casting spells. She was OK with the bard, because they always have (although she might not have realised how much this has been enhanced) but the fighter? That was her main point. She didn't like the idea of the Arcane Trickster for pretty much the same reason.

Well, I definitely understand her POV. Even in 3E, prestige classes with their spells did not show up until level 6. By then, Wizards were actually shining.

 

[Blackwarder]

I don't see the railroad in either of these situations.

How is the GM deciding that a dragon attacks a railroad? Isn't it the GM's job to decide the actions of NPCs? And how would this invalidate any choices made by the players for their PCs?

It isn't and it wouldn't, it's people trying to find faults anywhere they can I guess.

Warder

 

[the Jester]

At about level 5 (about 26 encounters in), Wizards finally start to shine. She just has to bide her time (something that some players do not want to do and to some extent, justifiably so).

Wow, in my 5e game, the wizard has shone a lot from the beginning, and that's without sleep.

He really likes thunderwave, shield and magic missile, plus his cantrips. And once he got 2nd level spells, he fell in love with shatter. Being tactically savvy with thunderwave has probably prevented 2 TPKs so far.

 

[KarinsDad]

Wow, in my 5e game, the wizard has shone a lot from the beginning, and that's without sleep.

He really likes thunderwave, shield and magic missile, plus his cantrips. And once he got 2nd level spells, he fell in love with shatter. Being tactically savvy with thunderwave has probably prevented 2 TPKs so far.

I play a wizard. It's been ok without Sleep. It has not been "shining". All 5 other PCs at the table have had more opportunities to shine than my wizard, although the frequency for the wizard has increased slightly once we got to third (and fourth) level. Fog Cloud and Web have been our best "save the day" type spells. We have only been in two especially deadly fights, one of which was really really deadly (the other being the Half Dragon fight in Greenest). It's somewhat rare for PCs to go unconscious in the moderate (or weaker) fights (although it has happened a few times in even average fights because some of our healers have forgotten Healing Word).

Shield doesn't help as much for an Abjuration Wizard since the first hit of the day has to be allowed, otherwise, Arcane Ward resources are wasted (or at least there's a good chance that they will be wasted). Assuming, of course, that one doesn't forego the use of Mage Armor (in which case using Shield at the first opportunity is a good move). So although my wizard has the Shield spell, he has only used it a small number of times.

Obviously, one's mileage will vary.

 

[the Jester]

I play a wizard. It's been ok without Sleep. It has not been "shining". All 5 other PCs at the table have had more opportunities to shine than my wizard, although the frequency for the wizard has increased slightly once we got to third (and fourth) level.

Obviously, it varies from table to table and, doubtless, wizard build to wizard build. The guy in my game is playing an evoker armored dwarf wizard type, and often even steps into the front line when the chips are down. Because of his good AC and hps (high Con) he's been willing to risk OAs to position himself to blow the monsters off unconscious characters when they might otherwise stay there and munch on them. Wizard to the front!

Fog Cloud and Web have been our best "save the day" type spells. We have only been in two especially deadly fights, one of which was really really deadly (the other being the Half Dragon fight in Greenest). It's somewhat rare for PCs to go unconscious in the moderate (or weaker) fights (although it has happened a few times in even average fights because some of our healers have forgotten Healing Word).

Interesting. The wizard IMC chose neither of those spells at 3rd- he took shatter and invisibility. I don't think he's ever cast his second-level spells from hitting 4th level, so I don't even know off hand what they are!

I think every second level spell he has ever cast except two have been shatter, with one of the others being invisibility and the other being a bumped-up thunderwave. Being able to sculpt his spells to avoid nailing party members has been a lifesaver for him (well, them) several times.

Shield doesn't help as much for an Abjuration Wizard since the first hit of the day has to be allowed, otherwise, Arcane Ward resources are wasted (or at least there's a good chance that they will be wasted). Assuming, of course, that one doesn't forego the use of Mage Armor (in which case using Shield at the first opportunity is a good move). So although my wizard has the Shield spell, he has only used it a small number of times.

Interesting! I hadn't considered that aspect of the arcane ward. Huh. That's very counterintuitive.... I guess it depends on how often you get hit. It's weird that the ward sort of encourages you to let yourself get hit, but I guess it soaks up damage that would otherwise cost another pc hps (or use up a spell slot for the shield)... huh.

The group in my game has been in many dangerous combats, either with large numbers of enemies (especially kobolds and orcs) or with a few very dangerous monsters (for instance, when thewizard was just barely 3rd level, most of the party fell down a slide trap that dropped them like 3 levels deeper in the dungeon they were exploring, and then they encountered 3 gricks. Yikes, that was a near tpk and one of the times that thunderwave really saved the day). Maybe the high-difficulty encounters, or the larger numbers of adversaries, help to let the wizard shine?

In any event, I hope you get your chance to strut your stuff sooner than later!