Why is it wrong to make alignment matter?

However, to box character's characteristics so that all of a particular alignment have a particular and significant advantage in one particular area does not smell too good to me.

Let's not overstate the situation: there are two classes that have an "alignment matters" status. I do not think that alignment should be really important to every character. Mostly, the way it is handled now works well.

However, for characters that *are* tied to an alignment, and that consider that alignment important, then there should be some representation of that status.

When you look at the differences between a NE and a NG cleric, what do you find? The primary difference (and it's a real mechanical difference) is in spontaneous curing and inflicting spells. It really affects the approach to the class - although, unfortunately, it doesn't work that well for evil clerics. (How many evil clerics are disadvantaged because they have to devote slots to cure spells rather than actual evil spells to take down the party?)

That's about it. A CG cleric and a LG cleric tend to look *extremely* similar. There's some variance due to domains, but those tend to be given out at random. There's not much of an alignment variance.

Cheers!
 

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Umbran said:
The thing with alignment is that it needs to be open to DM interpretation.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The more closely tied to specific mechanics that alignments (or any rule, really) are, the less appropriate they become for certain genres and/or settings, thus the game becomes less flexible as a result.
 
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A campaign which closely tracks alignments could be interesting. Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar was so compelling because your actions were key to completing the quests - you couldn't pray at the shrine of valor (and thereby gain the widget needed from it) if you first hadn't been valorous.

This has cynical implications - i.e. I'll only help this beggar because it improves my cosmic ranking in compassion; I'll only give blood because it'll improve my ranking in sacrifice. But it could be a wakeup call to the PCs/players when they discover that they can't proceed until they "act their alignment" more, or show more devotion for their deity. Thus, as a component of a campaign, I think it has a lot of interesting roleplay possibilities.
 


Alignments have ALWAYS mattered. Paladins get smacked down for not being LG. Monks must be lawful (and their ki strike reflects that) barbarians loose their rage when lawful, and bards must also be not stray deeply. Druids require neutral detachment. Paladin and monks (the only classes that REQUIRE lawfulness in thier alignment) punish you for leaving them to multiclass. Clerics must match their deities alignment (within one) and must be a certain alignment to cast certain spells (no good clerics summon fiends or animating dead). There is Alignment based DR for outsiders (and aligned weapons and spells to overcome it). Some magic items bestow negative levels to those who are not properly aligned and intelligent weapons punish you if your not of the right alignment when you get them.

This is just one more step in that direction. While the bonus's match those in the mini's game, they are just as arbitary as having chaotic spells be multicolored, lawful blue, good gold, and evil black. Or favored weapons for godless-clerics be a battleaxe (chaos), longsword (law), flail (evil) or warhammer (good).

And Merric, Good and Evil DO reward you differently. Compare the Sacred Vows to the Willing Defomities. Nymph-Kiss to Lichloved. etc.
 

MerricB said:
As it stands in D&D, having an alignment is more often a penalty than a bonus.

Cheers!

Thats because its easier to punish one than reward many.

My D&D party consists of NG, NG, LG, CG, CN, LN. A spell that grants Good PCs a +1 to hit for example, exlcudes 1/3 of my players. But a spell than punishes evil creatures with a -1 to AC rewards all my players evenly.
 

Remathilis said:
And Merric, Good and Evil DO reward you differently. Compare the Sacred Vows to the Willing Defomities. Nymph-Kiss to Lichloved. etc.

Unfortunately, neither BoVD or BoED is standard D&D.
 

I think the main pain in the "alignment matters" occurs when you want to use the ruleset in a world with an alternative alignment system, no alignment system, or a world where typically alignment runs second compared to practicality and survival in a harsh situation. (I just posted something noting that in the campaign I play in currently, I have an exalted monk (with toned-down Vow of Poverty), and we're generally working to help support Irongate against the Scarlet Brotherhood, but head of the Irongate secret service is almost certainly lawful evil.)

Anyway, I think some people have (for some reason) lost sight of the fact that if you rule 0 away alignment, you can change things around a lot. I'm fond of the d20 Modern allegiance system (you can have up to three listed allegiances, in order of importance. Those allegiances might include Good, Evil, Law, or Chaos, but more likely include something like: CIA, United States, Secret Order of Holy Onion Bagel. Meaning that allegiance to the CIA comes before allegiance to the US itself, comes before allegiance to the SOoHOB.) I like it mainly because in a situation like the Irongate campaign, it makes it more clear what's going on: the evil SS guy's allegiance is really to Irongate, and *maybe* to Law after that. All he cares about is making Irongate safe, and if he has to torture people, so be it. My character's allegiance, on the other hand, is more like: Good, Zuoken, Irongate. She cares about Good above all else, the precepts of Zuoken's followers second, and Irongate only after both of those.

Of course, the allegiance system can be made to fit with the standard alignment system: first, you say that only people who *very strongly* believe in an alignment have an alignment as an allegiance. A traditional lawful good fighter probably wouldn't have Law or Good on his allegiances. A paladin might have one or both, or simply have a LG deity. I'd say that it's appropriate to say that you can choose any of the traditional alignments to have an allegiance to (so you don't need to use two allegiance slots on Law and Good... although doing so allows you to distinguish which comes first in your character's mind.)

On another axis: I've been thinking about how I'd use MoI in a setting that has no alignment whatsoever, and came up with the idea that the different "alignments" could be treated as different schools of incarnum use. Now instead of having to be good, lawful, chaotic, or evil to be an incarnate, and that focus determining whether you focus on defense, precision, speed, or power, you have to be trained by one school or another, and different schools tend to attract different sorts of people. People in the Power school tend to be mean and nasty more often than people in the Defense school, but that doesn't rule out a fine upstanding chivalric guy training in that school (if the training doesn't turn him off.)


Anyway, what I meant to say when I started out is this: on the one hand, DMs need to make sure they keep their eyes open to the fact that you *can* change how all of these things work to suit their own idea of alignment. At the same time, I'd rather see WotC release "strong-alignment" rulesets like this with at least a page suggesting how it can be adapted to a weaker alignment system. Otherwise, it complicates alignments even more... and alignments are already one of the murkiest parts of the rules system.
 

MerricB said:
However, apparently this is a bad idea. Alignment should be something that is there purely to cause friction at the game table, and should not have any game effects at all.

For my money, i don't mind the notion that adherence to a "primal force" granting abilities in such a magically charged universe at all.

However, i just find the alignments to be too broad and too bland to be of much storytelling benefit in this notion. They are the wrong "keys to the prizes" IMO.

Better keys are religions (where they have defined dogma to follow, favors to the church, rites and practices), cults, powerful individual outsiders, and even ancient dragons and such.

An alignment doesn't have a face, doesn't have personality quirks and makes for a poor conversationalist.

So, when i want to add these "follower benefits" i chose an organization with a goal to be the focus, not an alignment.

YMMV
 

MerricB said:
When you look at the differences between a NE and a NG cleric, what do you find? The primary difference (and it's a real mechanical difference) is in spontaneous curing and inflicting spells. It really affects the approach to the class - although, unfortunately, it doesn't work that well for evil clerics. (How many evil clerics are disadvantaged because they have to devote slots to cure spells rather than actual evil spells to take down the party?)
Well, my take on it is that curing is better than inflicting, but rebuking is better than turning. This breaks down though, because not every evil cleric wants to or is able to walk around with an entourage of undead mooks. Alignment based traits are not necessairly bad, but they become problematic when they force a particular concept or disadvantage you for not following that concept (such as "all evil clerics are necromancers").
 

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