Why is it wrong to make alignment matter?

LostSoul said:
I think that D&D doesn't have mechanics tied to alignment because that's not what the game is about. If you wanted alignment to play a central role in the game, I'm not sure D&D would still be about killing things and taking their stuff.

None of the mechanics above change this - we agree there. All I'm saying is that alignment is not central to the "core story" of D&D, and thus it is an area the rules leave undeveloped.

Although I basically agree with you, D&D does have several mechanics that relate to alignment (in the spells), and they're almost always punitive. Rather than having spells that aid characters of a particular alignment, they hurt other alignments.

I'm very glad to see alignment-related mechanics that are positive in MoI.

Cheers!
 

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MerricB said:
The Book of Exalted Deeds has three feats that indicate allegiance to one of the celestial patron groups. (LG, NG, CG). Unfortunately, they each have exactly the same effect. It makes for ease of portability, but you lose out on a lot of interesting interactions thereby.

As above - Consider it more a foundation and less the end-all be-all of alignment.

The authors should very well know that people are not playing the alignment system "straight", because by it's nature it is only vaguely defined in the first place. If what counts as "Evil" is going to vary from campaign to campaign, it doesn't make much sense to hard-code the effects of it in the rules, hm?

However, if they give you three separate feats, that's dartned well inviting you to tweak each one separately.
 

I think your system might lead to more extremes. Could one get "double bonuses" for being Lawful and Good (or Chaotic and Good)? If so, there is less reason to be Neutral Good. Or does one gain more bonuses if one only picks one of them? In which case, True Neutrals still are in trouble but Neutral Goods could just get a higher "Good" bonus.

Personally, I like the idea of a "champion of good" a la some dragon magazines. It seemed strange to me that you have the LG champion, and the CG champion (prestige classes, alternate paladins in UA, etc.) but fewer NG champions (save in Dragon Magazines and BoED).

There is always the Plane-Touched, I guess.
 

Umbran said:
The authors should very well know that people are not playing the alignment system "straight", because by it's nature it is only vaguely defined in the first place. If what counts as "Evil" is going to vary from campaign to campaign, it doesn't make much sense to hard-code the effects of it in the rules, hm?
Well put, Umbran. From alignment skeptics to the system's most ardent supporters, everyone with whom I correspond on ENWorld about alignment, it turns out, has house-ruled some aspect of the system. This simply isn't true of most things in the rules.
 

In my homebrew campaign, alignment is a feat. The idea is that an alignment represents a wholehearted devotion to a certain point on the moral/ethical compass. Most folks don't live with that kind of conviction. Those that do take the alignment feat. Classes with the Aura feature, paladins and a couple of others receive the feat for free. The feat serves as a prerequisite for different things (using aligned weapons, accessing prestige classes with alignment requirements, benefitting from or suffering the effects of certain spells etc). Outsiders from the outer planes receive the feat as a bonus feat as well. It doesn't whittle away the amount of availbe feats too much as we use the Favoured Class variant from the Conan game (no xp penalty for extra classes, but receive a bonus feat at 1st, 5th and 10th level in your favoured class). I'm still fine tuning it, but it makes alignments both more and less relevant. Those who wish to take advantage of alignments can do so with benefits that are unavailable to others, while those who are uninterested can pass it by without shaking up the game too much. I was really pleased to see the alignments play such a prominent role in Magic of Incarnum - it was a significant selling point for me as it ties in so well with the way I use alignments in my homebrew games. (Of course, in my DS games, I don't use alignment at all. What's the point when everyone is Selfish Futile anyway?)
 

Why is it wrong to make alignment matter?

Because it is a rules element that touches on the role-playing part of the game, so to speak. Potentially, the comportment of this or that character may be framed by the alignment. You can then, as a player, consider alignments as one of two things: a role-playing aid, or an obstacle to your creativity. If alignments become more than guidelines and are clear-cut lines for PCs and NPCs' behaviors, where the DM could say "you're not playing your character right" or the players the same thing to the DM, it may affect people with the last opinion and make it an explosive rejection instead of a dislike.
 

So let me propose an answer on the original question: Why is it wrong to make alignment matter?

In terms of adding conrete mechanical abilities to alingment... the reason it might be "wrong" to do so in a rulebook, especially a corebook for DND is...

because alignment is handled and envisioned and treated so differently from one game to the next that no "alignment does this..." rule would be satisfactory to anything but a very small segment while it would be unsatisfactoryin a non-neutral sort of way to many more. hence it wouldn't be a good rule.
 

Well, let's see if I can shed a little bit of light on why I'm not a big fan of the alignment-centric MoI idea.

First, let me state that by FAR my biggest problem is the fact that it seems made with the idea to sell more minis in mind. The idea to make the Soulborn and the Incarnate so dependant on alignment seems to have nothing to do with the logic of Incarnum itself (which, just being "soul energy," wouldn't appear to care one way or the other which use it was indended for). There's no reason for a person who uses spiritual energy to HAVE to have any certain alignments, at least as far as I can logically see. The fact that it hinges on alignment is not nearly so annoying as the idea that MoI was designed, transparently, with the minis game in mind. The book was not purchased so it could give me minis ideas, it was purchased for my home game, and it needs to be useful first and foremost THERE.

Making the classes so intensely focused on alignment actually makes it much LESS useful in my home game, for a number of reasons.

#1: Parties usually include a diversity of alignments. But the Incarnum classes, almost by definition, can't tolerate much in the way of diversity. Thus, to play your character means to get into a LOT of debates about alignment at the table with others in your party. This problem is exacerbated by including more than one Incarnum character in your party with different alignments, since it's like pushing together two opposing magnetic poles (even if the alignments aren't entirely opposite). An LG Soulborn and an LN Incarnate played to the hilt by players heavy into character development will CONSTANTLY have issues. Those debates bog down play and annoy the heck out of those not involved in them. In the core game, the only character with this level of devout adherence to alignment would be the Paladin (and, arguably, the Cleric). How many games do you think have been disturbed by Paladin Problems? How many DM's ban the class or reconsider alignments entirely based on these debates? A curosry glance at these boards is probably enough to let you know. Extreme adherence to alignment causes problems. While in a normal game, it can be handled deftly (a devout paladin and a selfish rogue *can* exist in the same party without many issues with a skillful DM and willing players), the problem increases exponentially when you hinge mechanics and bonuses on it (the devout Soulborn and the extremist Incarnate could *cripple* their party with in-fighting, because both fear the loss of their powers if they give an inch).

#2: If your party is all one alignment (and it's a situation I've never come accross), the mechanical bonuses become redundant and dull. A party that uses MoI who includes Good characters will beef up their AC. A party that has Chaotic characters will be mobility monsters. This is all well and good, but it forces specialization, and that is BAD, in a party. It's why having a party of all fighters or all sorcerers is generally bad news: you loose out on what you can't do. An increased AC is fine, but if EVERYONE has an increased AC, you'll find that battles will range from "can't touch any of us!" to "can't miss any of us!" without much of a contiuum in the middle, just like a party with all sorcerers would range from "we kill them all in the first round" to "they kill us all in the first round" without much of a contiuum in the middle. If everyone is mobile, either everyone is mobile, or everyrone isn't. If everyone can hit well, either everyone hits well, or no one does. It forces a binary extreme to encounters that isn't very satisfying. A party is most viable when its' members all have something different to contribute: the fighter has a high AC (good), the sorcerer can kill a lot of critters (evil), the cleric can make everyone better at what they do (lawful), the rogue can flank and drop individuals (chaotic). A game using MoI where everyone has the same alignment makes every member contribute the exact same thing.

Law is gaining a bonus to attack
Chaos is gaining a bonus to speed
Good is gaining a bonus to AC
Evil is gaining a bonus to damage

Do those abilities fit the alignments? If not, why not?

No, they don't. Because every alignment wants a bonus to attack and every alignment wants a bonus to speed and every alignment wants a bonus to AC and every alignment wants a bonus to damage. It's like saying "Fireball is evil, because it uses fire and fire comes from HELL!" Yes, sure, fine, but fire is a tool -- these bonuses are tools -- and it can be used for different ends depending upon the motive of the wielder, NOT the nature of the tool.

It's a simplistic definition that forces certain easy tactics when ALL of those tactics are viable for ANY alignment. Good and Evil should give you the same powers because that allows each individual character to interpret how this is used for himself. Ambiguity and lack of definition is a VERY valuable thing in alignment, and one of the only things that stops it from being a straightjacket and allows it to be a useful descriptor in the game. Alignment should never be something you are DEFINED AS, merely something you happen to be. Evil can be just as defensive as Good. Chaos can be just as obsessed with accuracy as Law. Because MoI forces the definition otherwise, it hurts the ability of alignments to be defined in terms of the campaign at the table. It creates a false association. "Obviously this mobile, agile race is Chaotic! Chaos is mobile and agile!" Why can't law be just as mobile -- MORE mobile? Why can't Law focus on mobility?

Furthermore, those above definitions don't mesh with how the aligments look from the Core Rules. By that book, Law means mobility (Monk), Chaos means damage (barbarian), Good means healing (Cleric), Evil means undead (Cleric), and Lawful Good means healing and protection (Paladin). Law obviously *is* mobile, Chaos obviously *is* damage, evil obviously *is* pets and save-or-die effects. But any alignment can do any of that -- evil can heal just as well as good, chaos can become just as mobile as law, you can deal heavy damage just as easily Good or Evil. So you can't say law *is* one thing when it is manifold and multifaceted and it should be. To say it's not, to define it as A, when it can be A, B, Z, or X, is harmful to the party, to the story, to the setting, and to the game.

Creating a class where the choice lies between mobility, accuracy, AC, and damage is not nessecarily a bad idea -- it hits the four major archetypes, after all. However, linking it to alignment IS nessecarily a bad idea, because the four major archetypes are meant to work together, not be in conflict. And the alignments are meant to be in conflict, not work together. If every Rogue had to be Chaotic, every Fighter Good, every Cleric Lawful, and every Sorcerer Evil, it would be the same problem, and it would be the same complaint from me: alignment should describe the world, not define the world.
 
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I have a few issues w/ providing bonuses exclusively for alignments. The first is that a movement bonus is greatly overpowered compared w/ the other items. This is easily resolved by switching up the bonuses, as another party had already noted. Another is that, as already pointed out; neutrals get screwed with this set up. Plus, the bonuses cited are easily duplicated or simulated by the feats Dodge, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, and Dash so any fighter could customize herself to be different from any other.

My final problem with this system, also answering why it is wrong to make alignment matter, is that alignment is intended to be primarily a role-playing tool. Obviously this has changed a bit in 3rd Edition w/ the addition of alignment based DRs and spells like Chaos Hammer, but giving characters bonuses “just because” based on their alignment makes it more of a power gaming tool than a role-playing one. On top of that, goodness is supposed to be its own reward. Evil guys get bonuses because they lie, cheat, and put venom on their blades, and neutral characters don’t suffer the problems of others, but the good guys have to play by the book, fight the good fight, and help out others. It’s not easy being good, and that’s part of the point. D & D is mechanically intended to be a game about heroics.

As for alignment tracking/changing, I’m surprised no one mentioned the 1st edition Dragonlance book (DL Adventures, I think), which had a mechanic to track alignment changes. Basically, you took two lines of 30 segments each, w/ +6 to +15 being good on one and chaotic on another and -6 to -15 being evil on the first and lawful on the second. Absolute values 0 to 5 would be neutral. As you committed good or evil acts, you moved up and down the scale. It had a weight modifier so a moderately evil act would make a pure hearted soul move more quickly to the left than a neutral would (but the neutral would still be closer to being evil after the adjustment). This is interestingly mirrored in video games like Fable and Knights of the Old Republic.
 

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