Tinker Gnome
Adventurer
I see how tradition can be a large factor. But, ya think people wold have deviated by now, oh well. 
Why is Medieval fantasy the standard?
- Thread starter Tinker Gnome
- Start date
nikolai
First Post
I think pseudo-medieval european fantasy is the standard just because it's the easiest set of assumptions to work with. It's also popular from books. You get the full range of kit to use (plate mail, halberds, etc.), people are more exposed to popular images of the period, and the standard Tolkienian background tropes (elves, etc.) can be easily inserted. This is just high-medieval; "dark-ages" settings like Lord of the Rings, where ring-mail is the best armour also aren't that commonly done.
I think it's interesting to note that there are strong traditions of pre-history Sandals & Sorcery style fantasy (Conan, Hyperboria) and far-future apocalyptic style fantasy (Dying Earth, Zothique). But, although they are very influential, settings modelled after them are quite rare.
I think it's interesting to note that there are strong traditions of pre-history Sandals & Sorcery style fantasy (Conan, Hyperboria) and far-future apocalyptic style fantasy (Dying Earth, Zothique). But, although they are very influential, settings modelled after them are quite rare.
Desdichado
Hero
Exactly. The claim was, once cannons and guns are introduced, it's not cool anymore? And that's why Pirates of the Caribbean was the most popular movie of 2003, right?skinnydwarf said:
Or why movies like Die Hard, Dirty Harry, High Noon etc., etc. ad infinitum, are not classics, because only medieval fantasy is "cool" enough?
Kugar
First Post
Mostly because it works.
Medieval fantasy has very specific factors that other genres don't.
1) Background - Shared background that is not the modern day. There are castles out there and people wonder what it would be like to live then.
2) Magic - the merlin/wizard archetype was a fairly medieval concept. If you want magic, it always feels right living in ancient wizards towers.
3) Ease of running - If you have a king and a bunch of serfs you have a simple kingdom. Monsters roam the land like the Dragons of our legends. Suspension of disbelief works well in this genre also.
4) Role of heroes - Heroes are needed to just keep humanity going. Not like modern day where heroes may be hated for trying to change the status quo.
Remember that DnD is also a mishmash of things. It might look like midieval fanatasy but add polytheism, non-feudal governments, and a post-renaissance thoelogical view you find a DnD world is it's own hybrid setting with a Knights and Wizards veneer applied.
Medieval fantasy has very specific factors that other genres don't.
1) Background - Shared background that is not the modern day. There are castles out there and people wonder what it would be like to live then.
2) Magic - the merlin/wizard archetype was a fairly medieval concept. If you want magic, it always feels right living in ancient wizards towers.
3) Ease of running - If you have a king and a bunch of serfs you have a simple kingdom. Monsters roam the land like the Dragons of our legends. Suspension of disbelief works well in this genre also.
4) Role of heroes - Heroes are needed to just keep humanity going. Not like modern day where heroes may be hated for trying to change the status quo.
Remember that DnD is also a mishmash of things. It might look like midieval fanatasy but add polytheism, non-feudal governments, and a post-renaissance thoelogical view you find a DnD world is it's own hybrid setting with a Knights and Wizards veneer applied.
Last edited:
Desdichado
Hero
I don't buy that. Not in the least. Let's look at each of your line items:Kugar said:
I'm not sure why a "shared background that is not the modern day" is something that contributes to a game's success. Or why Westerns, Victorian, Pirate, "classical" Greco-Roman, etc. wouldn't have the same "benefit" in the first place.Kugar said:
"Medieval" fantasy doesn't have magic, Fantasy has magic. You can add magic to any other genre and make it fantasy. Mystic men with strange powers are archetypes from a lot of other genres as well.Kugar said:
Bah. None of that makes it easier to run. And you get the same "benefit" from any other genre as well. Westerns: you have the sherrif and a bunch of homesteaders and a simple territory. Monsters [can] roam the land as easily as a "Medieval" fantasy. I don't know why suspension of disbelief would be any different in "Medieval" fantasy. Same thing for a pirate game, you have the governer and a bunch of peasants and a simple colony., etc.Kugar said:
Bah again. Iconic characters like John MacClane, Dirty Harry, Cool Hand Luke, Indianna Jones, etc., etc., ad infinitum are no different than "Medieval" heroes in this regard.Kugar said:
I think the bottom line is, a lot of people like Medieval fantasy, and that's that. There's no explanation for it that really makes sense, but there doesn't need to be. It's like that Apple Jacks commercial, where the dad asks all the kids why they like Apple Jacks, and says "they don't even taste like apples." They just shrug and say "we just like 'em" and keep on eating. Some things you don't explain, they just are and that's that.
Last edited:
Joshua Dyal said:
I think that may be part of the reason, but iconic characters like Dirty Harry & Indiana Jones are recent incarnations and do not have the history behind them yet. I'm guessing that the Old West in the US does not have the same romantic effect on a lot of Europeans or Asians that game. The same with pirates in the Caribbean - it has a limited audience. Ancient Rome & Greece will not have the same effect on somebody raised on '3 Kingdoms'.
King Arthur & Merlin have 1,200 years of history behind them and the Middle Ages (say 1050AD to 1450AD) is something that affected everybody from Spain & Northern Africa to the Middle East, India, China and Japan. The Mongols threatened China, and then they threatened Europe in the mid 1200s...
The Middle Ages may not have been the same over those thousands of miles, and they may have started using gunpowder a lot sooner in China than in Europe, but they still swung swords and shot bow & arrow back then and dragons and other fearsome monsters are part of the folklore in lands as far apart as England and China. So, I think it is the commonality of D&D that has led to its popularity. There is something appealing in it to more cultures than other genres.
Painfully
First Post
My feeling is that mythical stories are the oldest and most often passed down through the ages. They also have the most mystery and room for interpretation. Mythical stories are even older than many religions, or have become ingrained into them.
Myths are almost always born in a "medieval" setting of one kind or another. So, when you choose to create entire new worlds with their own myths and mysteries, it helps to, "begin at the beginning" so to speak, and use a medieval setting as a base.
That's all just a wild guess though.
Myths are almost always born in a "medieval" setting of one kind or another. So, when you choose to create entire new worlds with their own myths and mysteries, it helps to, "begin at the beginning" so to speak, and use a medieval setting as a base.
That's all just a wild guess though.
Kugar
First Post
Again let me reiterate two things that seem to be important to me.
1) It works, many RP groups use it. They also play other genres but return to play DnD in a midieval environment. It has the right combination of things to make a good game. Sure you can nick at pieces individually, but as a whole it has a pleasant feel. Too much technology and one wonders why the world isn't filled with magic/technology hybred and the game gets wierder and wierder. Too little technology and basic task become tedious not fun.
2) Most DnD games I would guess are not Midieval. They are a hybred of modern ideas wraped around a polytheistic culture painted in the colors of Wizards and Knights and Dragons.
I realld did not want to give this type of flippant "Midieval fantasy is NOT the norm" answer without putting out some other ideas.
Also take a look at the title of the Game Dungeons and Dragons. From the name to the total presentation this pseudomidieval world is is created in the core books of the most popular game. That doesn't hurt either.
It's also worth noting that this argument could just as easily be "Why is all the futuristic clone fantasy set in Alpha Complex?" if another game was more popular.
1) It works, many RP groups use it. They also play other genres but return to play DnD in a midieval environment. It has the right combination of things to make a good game. Sure you can nick at pieces individually, but as a whole it has a pleasant feel. Too much technology and one wonders why the world isn't filled with magic/technology hybred and the game gets wierder and wierder. Too little technology and basic task become tedious not fun.
2) Most DnD games I would guess are not Midieval. They are a hybred of modern ideas wraped around a polytheistic culture painted in the colors of Wizards and Knights and Dragons.
I realld did not want to give this type of flippant "Midieval fantasy is NOT the norm" answer without putting out some other ideas.
Also take a look at the title of the Game Dungeons and Dragons. From the name to the total presentation this pseudomidieval world is is created in the core books of the most popular game. That doesn't hurt either.
It's also worth noting that this argument could just as easily be "Why is all the futuristic clone fantasy set in Alpha Complex?" if another game was more popular.
Wombat
First Post
Inertia, tradition, and all the rest are factors.
Consider: what we call "fantasy" nowadays is actually a continuation, in many ways, of medieval epics. Wizards, dragons, magical swords, underground chambers, strange towers, and the like are found in variants in Beowulf, the Arthurian legends, in the Peers of Charlemagne, in the Niebelungenlied, in Icelandic sagas, in The Firebird and hosts of other tales going back into the dim reaches of time. For that matter we could even back the process up to even earlier mythology, Classical and not-so-Classical.
This material is re-invented and re-worked throughout all of Western literature -- Shakespeare, the Gothic writers, Tennyson, Lord Dunsany, etc., right up to this very day. In a way, what we have here is a tradition.
That being said, there have been variants in technology over time. Arthur's knights start out in chainmail and end up in full plate (that is quite the advance ... at least in terms of the Middle Ages). There are tales where cannon have appeared. But even more importantly than the technological factors what doesn't change is the basic social structure. Why? Because no one wants to deal with lawyers, bankers, and the like. If you want a clear example of this, just read Mallory's Le Morte d'Arthur -- in the 15th century many nobles were actually poorer than most merchants ("How can they have so much money? They sell time, yet they did not manufacture this time.") and lawyers are putting limits on what people may and may not do. Mallory ignores all this and actually uses many passages in LMA to lambaste then-current practices, pointing back to a "simpler and nobler" time.
This, more than anything else to my eye, is the origin point of modern fantasy -- wishing for something simpler, a world in which it is alright to just go out and whack someone you disagree with because he is obviously the Bad Guy, without having to look over your shoulder for a lawyer or worry if some merchant is going to be able to buy and sell you.
So modern fantasy might include a few innovations (rapiers replace broadswords, sailing vessels have compasses & wheels, etc.), but the social innovations are kept at bay because of their implications.
Consider: what we call "fantasy" nowadays is actually a continuation, in many ways, of medieval epics. Wizards, dragons, magical swords, underground chambers, strange towers, and the like are found in variants in Beowulf, the Arthurian legends, in the Peers of Charlemagne, in the Niebelungenlied, in Icelandic sagas, in The Firebird and hosts of other tales going back into the dim reaches of time. For that matter we could even back the process up to even earlier mythology, Classical and not-so-Classical.
This material is re-invented and re-worked throughout all of Western literature -- Shakespeare, the Gothic writers, Tennyson, Lord Dunsany, etc., right up to this very day. In a way, what we have here is a tradition.
That being said, there have been variants in technology over time. Arthur's knights start out in chainmail and end up in full plate (that is quite the advance ... at least in terms of the Middle Ages). There are tales where cannon have appeared. But even more importantly than the technological factors what doesn't change is the basic social structure. Why? Because no one wants to deal with lawyers, bankers, and the like. If you want a clear example of this, just read Mallory's Le Morte d'Arthur -- in the 15th century many nobles were actually poorer than most merchants ("How can they have so much money? They sell time, yet they did not manufacture this time.") and lawyers are putting limits on what people may and may not do. Mallory ignores all this and actually uses many passages in LMA to lambaste then-current practices, pointing back to a "simpler and nobler" time.
This, more than anything else to my eye, is the origin point of modern fantasy -- wishing for something simpler, a world in which it is alright to just go out and whack someone you disagree with because he is obviously the Bad Guy, without having to look over your shoulder for a lawyer or worry if some merchant is going to be able to buy and sell you.
So modern fantasy might include a few innovations (rapiers replace broadswords, sailing vessels have compasses & wheels, etc.), but the social innovations are kept at bay because of their implications.
Ylis
First Post
Honestly, I look at it like this: most people, when thinking of a fantasy setting will not think futuristic or even modern. Modern is too plain to be a "fantasy" setting..it's what we're living now, no fantasy involved. Futuristic, while allowing us to dream a little, is not a set thing. We do not know the details of what it will entail. Therefore, we have too many options of theories, making the proposed setting too varying from game to game.
But, the past...well, we can do that. We know the details of the medieval times, and it was a time of adventure and fantasy, where magic *could* exist. A time where dragons and fey and goblins were IRL rumored to exist. Where peasants were in need of defense and knights in armor existed. Where men could be macho and slay a dragon with their sword instead of blowing it to oblivion with the touch of a trigger. Things that D&D's creators likely dreamt about when they were young boys...
That's my guess on it, anyway. And many people get upset if futuristic "stuff" is flung in there because it will take away from the fantasy. What good is magic when you have a contraption that can blow up a castle more effectively? What good is that sword +987 when your opponent pulls out the AK 47 +2 extra clips?
Well, that was a little more involved that I thought I was going to be in this conversation
But, the past...well, we can do that. We know the details of the medieval times, and it was a time of adventure and fantasy, where magic *could* exist. A time where dragons and fey and goblins were IRL rumored to exist. Where peasants were in need of defense and knights in armor existed. Where men could be macho and slay a dragon with their sword instead of blowing it to oblivion with the touch of a trigger. Things that D&D's creators likely dreamt about when they were young boys...
That's my guess on it, anyway. And many people get upset if futuristic "stuff" is flung in there because it will take away from the fantasy. What good is magic when you have a contraption that can blow up a castle more effectively? What good is that sword +987 when your opponent pulls out the AK 47 +2 extra clips?
Well, that was a little more involved that I thought I was going to be in this conversation
Similar Threads
