Level Up (A5E) Why is non-magical flying so limited for PCs?

[Thomas Shey]

The DM controls what is fought and where it is fought. Just... don't put melee-only monsters in open spaces where flight makes a character 'invincible'. You don't even need to break game logic for that to make sense: in a world with rocs and wyverns, wolves would stick to tree cover or go extinct.

The problem is this assumes wyverns and rocs are everywhere, and wherever they are they consider other predators what they're looking for. So again, you have to define things in a particular way to support the fliers.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is where I lose you. On the one hand you are saying that you want the world to be logical (sure makes sense). But on the other your saying you expect encounters to always have flying creatures and every NPC to carry a bow.... that is not logical to me.

I feel like flying PCs in fact forces less logic into my world, because I either have to tweak my encounters with creatures that should in theory be rare, or assume every NPC is a marksman with a bow even though those are martial weapons and should take a lot of training....or I can accept that my flying PC will just be invincible in a decent portion of fights.

I never said encounters should always account for flyers. They can, and should where it makes sense.

 

[Faolyn]

Which might lead to an even worse problem....splitting the party. If you have a couple of flying PCs in the group, and the rest aren't.... I mean why shouldn't the two flyers go grab the doohicky in like an hour and come back, instead of slog through a two day climb filled with terrible dangers?

First, that could always be the case. Your party likely has some members who dumped Strength and/or didn't take Athletics, and thus would be a liability. Sensibly, they should be staying behind while the strong, athletic members and people who actually have climb speeds do the climbing.

Secondly, why is the MacGuffin so easy to get that one or two flyers can just get in and out in just an hour? Shouldn't the flyers get there and discover that whoops, they actually need the non-flyers to get past everything up there that's protecting the doohickey? Too bad they left their non-flying rogue (to get past the mundane traps and locks), non-flyer wizard (to get past the magical protection), and non-flyer fighter (to get past the guardians that the flyers, by themselves, just aren't powerful enough to defeat).

Third, if the players choose to split the party, that's on them. Instead of focusing on the flyers--their part of the adventure is over in an hour--do something cool with the people who were left behind.

 

[James Gasik]

This is where I lose you. On the one hand you are saying that you want the world to be logical (sure makes sense). But on the other your saying you expect encounters to always have flying creatures and every NPC to carry a bow.... that is not logical to me.

I feel like flying PCs in fact forces less logic into my world, because I either have to tweak my encounters with creatures that should in theory be rare, or assume every NPC is a marksman with a bow even though those are martial weapons and should take a lot of training....or I can accept that my flying PC will just be invincible in a decent portion of fights.

Do you know what kind of advice you get when you ask "what should my character do about ranged/flying enemies"? Chances are very good you get told "carry a ranged weapon". In discussions about whether or not martials should have the ability to engage fliers in the air, say, through the use of "jump good", you'll often quickly get opinions of "unnecessary, just carry a bow".

I find it interesting that DM's fully expect players to make sure they have ranged options, as if it's the most basic and logical thing in the world, but here I hear people saying "well, why would every NPC carry a bow? That doesn't seem logical!".

Flying creatures are not uncommon in D&D, if the Monster Manual is representative of the kinds of creatures D&D worlds have. And many powerful foes you do not want to engage in melee combat. Seems to me that yes, actually, anyone who can use a ranged attack, would. Even Giant Apes know how to throw 7d6 boulders, after all.

Just a thought.

EDIT: forgot the word "melee" in the last paragraph.

 

[billd91]

I find it interesting that DM's fully expect players to make sure they have ranged options, as if it's the most basic and logical thing in the world, but here I hear people saying "well, why would every NPC carry a bow? That doesn't seem logical!".

Well, that depends on what those NPCs are doing, doesn't it? I wouldn't expect a local firewood collector, merchant, or charcoaler to always have a crossbow at hand in his everyday life. But a group of adventurers going into an unknown danger? Yes, I would.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Well, that depends on what those NPCs are doing, doesn't it? I wouldn't expect a local firewood collector, merchant, or charcoaler to always have a crossbow at hand in his everyday life. But a group of adventurers going into an unknown danger? Yes, I would.

i wouldn't expect a firewood collector, merchant, or charcoaler to be an actually challenging fight past maybe 1st or 2nd level anyway, so...

 

[Thomas Shey]

Do you know what kind of advice you get when you ask "what should my character do about ranged/flying enemies"? Chances are very good you get told "carry a ranged weapon". In discussions about whether or not martials should have the ability to engage fliers in the air, say, through the use of "jump good", you'll often quickly get opinions of "unnecessary, just carry a bow".

I find it interesting that DM's fully expect players to make sure they have ranged options, as if it's the most basic and logical thing in the world, but here I hear people saying "well, why would every NPC carry a bow? That doesn't seem logical!".

I'm perfectly willing to assume every humanoid opponent being fought carries a bow (though I should note that depends on the game; it works in D&D-oids where there's pretty unitary combat skills but less so in, say, a BRP derivative). What I'm not willing to do is assume every opponent is even capable (i.e. intelligent with arms) of doing so.

Flying creatures are not uncommon in D&D, if the Monster Manual is representative of the kinds of creatures D&D worlds have. And many powerful foes you do not want to engage in melee combat. Seems to me that yes, actually, anyone who can use a ranged attack, would. Even Giant Apes know how to throw 7d6 boulders, after all.

Just a thought.

EDIT: forgot the word "melee" in the last paragraph.

I really think this is overly blithe about whole classes of monsters that are more bestial and don't have significant magical ability. If you don't tend to use those then it'll seem moot, but being forced to not do so doesn't seem a virtue.

 

[Thomas Shey]

i wouldn't expect a firewood collector, merchant, or charcoaler to be an actually challenging fight past maybe 1st or 2nd level anyway, so...

I wouldn't expect most of those to end up fighting a group of PCs in the first place.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm perfectly willing to assume every humanoid opponent being fought carries a bow (though I should note that depends on the game; it works in D&D-oids where there's pretty unitary combat skills but less so in, say, a BRP derivative). What I'm not willing to do is assume every opponent is even capable (i.e. intelligent with arms) of doing so.



I really think this is overly blithe about whole classes of monsters that are more bestial and don't have significant magical ability. If you don't tend to use those then it'll seem moot, but being forced to not do so doesn't seem a virtue.

To be fair, there are plenty of bestial nonmagical monsters that can also fly. Maybe mix up the encounters a little? No one is saying you shouldn't ever use creatures that an optimizing flying PC wouldn't steam-roll.

 

[Thomas Shey]

To be fair, there are plenty of bestial nonmagical monsters that can also fly. Maybe mix up the encounters a little? No one is saying you shouldn't ever use creatures that an optimizing flying PC wouldn't steam-roll.

Even if I did, I doubt at the bottom end more than half of encounters would have a response to a flying opponent, and that doesn't seem a virtue.