Why is the WoW influence a bad thing?

[hong]

PS. If you consider FPSes to be mindless action, you ain't played modern FPSes. Mang, I WISH modern FPSes were just mindless action. I'd fare a lot better that way.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The move away from Vancian spellcasting is IMHO a good thing. It's a sacred cow that needed to die a long time ago.

Personally, I think that the way Vancian magic forces players to consider resource management is virtually unique in RPGs now, and is part of the essence of the game.

As for the whole "Lets stop & rest- the mage is out of spells" issue, we don't have that problem any more than we have the "Lets stop & rest- the fighter is out of HPs" issue.

In either case, you can try to stop & rest...but that doesn't mean that the DM, the campaign, and the random encounter table (if there is one) will let you.

 

[Grog]

Time-sensitive adventures become EASIER to pull off with per-encounter balancing, because the designer/DM no longer needs to worry about the party running out of steam prematurely. They can just insert encounters as deemed suitable for the timetable or setting, without having to deal with artificial game-design issues like not overwhelming the group too early.

Yes, exactly.

The 3E game mechanics require the party to rest after every four (CR appropriate) encounters. This means that you can't do a time-sensitive adventure unless it has four encounters or less - in which case, it's not much different from the party's standard adventuring "day," is it?

But with per-encounter balancing, you have a lot more freedom to design a time-sensitive adventure, because the party can continue even after they've used most of their per-day resources.

The big question in my mind, though, is healing. It's fine for offensive spells and maneuvers and such to refresh on a per-encounter basis, but what about hit points? Without some kind of change to the healing mechanic, the problem of short adventuring days will continue to exist, at least to some degree. I'm interested to see how they'll handle this.

 

[Grog]

As for the whole "Lets stop & rest- the mage is out of spells" issue, we don't have that problem any more than we have the "Lets stop & rest- the fighter is out of HPs" issue.

In either case, you can try to stop & rest...but that doesn't mean that the DM, the campaign, and the random encounter table (if there is one) will let you.

When the party is out of resources (and 99% of the time, "resources" means hit points and healing magic), they have to stop and rest. There's nothing else they can do. If the DM doesn't let them, all he does is guarantee that they'll suffer a TPK in their next fight, unless he fudges rolls or pulls a deus ex machina to save them.

I'm not sure what other options you think the players have.

 

[Sun Knight]

I have never had that problem with my games that I have run or played. The party breaks camp, have at least 4 to 5 encounters before midafternoon, they keep going to nightfall to camp. I have never played in a game in which the party needed to camp at 10 am just to replenish spells. Sure, by the end of the day the wizard and the cleric might be running low but that is how it is suppose to happen.

Why are your wizards running out of magic so early in the game day while mine are not?

 

[hong]

Yes, exactly.

The 3E game mechanics require the party to rest after every four (CR appropriate) encounters. This means that you can't do a time-sensitive adventure unless it has four encounters or less - in which case, it's not much different from the party's standard adventuring "day," is it?

That, or more encounters against easier opposition -- but then each encounter individually will usually lack something in the risk department.

But with per-encounter balancing, you have a lot more freedom to design a time-sensitive adventure, because the party can continue even after they've used most of their per-day resources.

The big question in my mind, though, is healing. It's fine for offensive spells and maneuvers and such to refresh on a per-encounter basis, but what about hit points? Without some kind of change to the healing mechanic, the problem of short adventuring days will continue to exist, at least to some degree. I'm interested to see how they'll handle this.

After playing Perfect Dark Zero, I've been toying with an idea where after each fight, the PCs roll a check of some kind to see how many hit points they get back. If you roll well enough, you get all your hp back (it was just "shock" or minor damage). Otherwise, you carry over some damage to the next fight.

Mechanically, it would be like an amped-up Heal check, only a skill isn't involved and you get back a significant proportion of your hp instead of just a small number. I'm thinking up to 50% of hp, but this could be cut back to 25% if 50% is too munchkin.

Alternatively, they've already mentioned the "second wind" thing, where after being beaten to 50% hp, you can take an action to heal some damage on your own. So far it's looking like 1/day only, but if this became 1/encounter, that would also achieve what I'm describing above. Or if 1/encounter is too loosely defined, even 3/day or 5/day would go a long way to extending the daily cycle.

 

[Rechan]

Personally, I think that the way Vancian magic forces players to consider resource management is virtually unique in RPGs now, and is part of the essence of the game..

And personally I hate it. Because playing a wizard, I'd rather memorize Grease and other more enjoyable utility spells, but then everyone looks at me weird when I say "Hey I didn't memorize Fireball, but I have Phantom steed so it's okay!"

 

[hectorse]

I have never had that problem with my games that I have run or played. The party breaks camp, have at least 4 to 5 encounters before midafternoon, they keep going to nightfall to camp. I have never played in a game in which the party needed to camp at 10 am just to replenish spells. Sure, by the end of the day the wizard and the cleric might be running low but that is how it is suppose to happen.

Why are your wizards running out of magic so early in the game day while mine are not?

Because obviously nobody can master the wizard class like you do...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

When the party is out of resources (and 99% of the time, "resources" means hit points and healing magic), they have to stop and rest. There's nothing else they can do. If the DM doesn't let them, all he does is guarantee that they'll suffer a TPK in their next fight, unless he fudges rolls or pulls a deus ex machina to save them.

I'm not sure what other options you think the players have.

#1) "Run Away!!!" or otherwise avoid a particular confrontation. Using your mind for sneaking & trickery is as important as anything else the PCs have at their disposal.

#2) TPKs are never guaranteed- they may get captured or perhaps the dice will go their way. The foes may not be intent on killing. Also, see #1, above.

#3) Plan ahead a little better...which may involve things like running away from an encounter earlier in the day, or letting the fighter finish off a foe instead of casting that additional Magic Missile.

Its not neccessarily about hosing the party.

Like I said, sometimes the question of whether a party can rest or not is sometimes out of the DM's hand. If the party chooses to camp in the location haunted by a Spectre who is due to rise in 1 turn, that's their problem.

Just like real life, sometimes the game doesn't let you take time to recharge. Sometimes you, or in this case, your PCs, have to reach down deep and find something within themselves that they didn't know they had.

For example, in the movie The Survivors, Robin Williams' character "Donald" gets in a gunfight in the woods with an assassin. He shouts out to his opponent:

Donald: Jaaaack?
Jack: Yeah?
Donald: Time out, OK?
Jack: Time out?
Donald: Time out.
Jack: What do you mean, 'time out?'
Donald: You're not gonna believe this. I was in a hurry when I left the cabin this morning, and, well, silly me, I got the wrong bullets.

Jack lies and grants the "time out" and as soon as Donald emerges from cover, begins shooting at him.

In game terms, Donald has no resources, and is facing an armed and more experienced opponent intent on killing him. (Spoiler: its a comedy starring Robin Williams- Donald survives the gunfight.)

Similarly, you can find the same dilemma in classic "survivor" movies like Surviving the Game, The Naked Prey, etc., and in classic modules like the Slaver series of 1Ed.

IOW, "out of resources" ≠ Time Out for the party.

 

[AllisterH]

*Defined Party Roles
*Per day abilities changed to per encounter

I may be able to think of others, but it is largely a moot point.

.

Wait. How is this "defined party roles" not a D&Dism? Try running a 1E adventure without a cleric and see how far you get. Try running a 2E adventure without a frontline fighter and see if it doesn't result in a TPK. In 3.x, all adventures after a certain level *ASSUME* you have a mage of that level.

Why is this considered a WoW feature?