Why is there a Caster Level for Golems?

[ElectricDragon]

[Caution Rant]

Okay, I understand that a caster level is needed for magic items: so you can figure out the magic item's save bonuses and how easily it is dispelled (exception for intelligent items and Will saves). Why place such a thing on golems and other constructs, though? Constructs just use the worst base saves in all categories. In nearly every place where caster level is mentioned for constructs (in the Construction paragraph); another line is added that the same caster level is required of the creator.

In the MM this is true in all constructs except for Retriever (has no Construction paragraph), the Inevitables (have no construction paragraphs) and the Homunculus (I think this is the way all of them should be written). Can a golem or other construct be dispelled like other magic items? Is that the reason? If so, the extraplanar constructs and the homunculus should also have the caster level line.

[End Rant]

Ciao
Dave

 

[irdeggman]

Perhaps for dispelling purposes?

 

[FEADIN]

Golems cannot be dispelled, they are creatures, they fonction normaly in antimagic zone for exemple (not their surnatural or spell-ike abilities).
The caster level is an indication, it is usually the lowest level to cast the higher spell in the crafting but if you have access to a staff, a wand, a scroll or other spellcasting device which gives you the requirements you can be lower level like for magical items.
Or maybe it's a restriction to limit these creature to the high levels.
Retriever are created by powerful evil outsiders, Inevitables are created by god-like forces to deal punishment and:
A homunculus with more than 2 Hit Dice can be created, but each additional Hit Die adds +2,000 gp to the cost to create.
Craft Construct, arcane eye, mirror image, mending, caster must be at least 4th level; Price — (never sold); Cost 1,050 gp + 78 XP.

 

[dcollins]

Okay, I understand that a caster level is needed for magic items: so you can figure out the magic item's save bonuses and how easily it is dispelled (exception for intelligent items and Will saves). Why place such a thing on golems and other constructs, though?

Good point. Clearly it doesn't get used for anything except the minimum-on-the-creator requirement. Oh, wait...

(Note that this issue is, again, a 3.5-only confusion.)

 

[irdeggman]

Golems cannot be dispelled, they are creatures, they fonction normaly in antimagic zone for exemple (not their surnatural or spell-ike abilities).
The caster level is an indication, it is usually the lowest level to cast the higher spell in the crafting but if you have access to a staff, a wand, a scroll or other spellcasting device which gives you the requirements you can be lower level like for magical items.
Or maybe it's a restriction to limit these creature to the high levels.
Retriever are created by powerful evil outsiders, Inevitables are created by god-like forces to deal punishment and:
A homunculus with more than 2 Hit Dice can be created, but each additional Hit Die adds +2,000 gp to the cost to create.
Craft Construct, arcane eye, mirror image, mending, caster must be at least 4th level; Price — (never sold); Cost 1,050 gp + 78 XP.

You can dispel a magic item thusly:

From SRD Dispel Magic

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

A golem is a considered a magic item.

From SRD Golem

CONSTRUCTION
The cost to create given for each golem includes the cost of the physical body and all the materials and spell components that are consumed or become a permanent part of the golem. Creating a golem is essentially similar to creating any sort of magic item. However, a golem’s body includes costly material components that may require some extra preparation. The golem’s creator can assemble the body or hire someone else to do the job. The builder must have the appropriate skill, which varies with the golem variety.

Completing the golem’s creation drains the appropriate XP from the creator and requires casting any spells on the final day.

The creator must cast the spells personally, but they can come from outside sources, such as scrolls.
The characteristics of a golem that come from its nature as a magic item (caster level, prerequisite feats and spells, market price, cost to create) are given in summary form at the end of each golem’s description.
Note: The market price of an advanced golem (a golem with more Hit Dice than the typical golem described in each entry) is increased by 5,000 gp for each additional Hit Die, and increased by an additional 50,000 gp if the golem’s size increases. The XP cost for creating an advanced golem is equal to 1/25 the advanced golem’s market price minus the cost of the special materials required.


It doesn’t say that a homunculus or shield guradian is (within their description in the MM (or SRD) though.

From SRD Homunculus and shield guardian:

CONSTRUCTION
A homunculus is shaped from a mixture of clay, ashes, mandrake root, spring water, and one pint of the creator’s own blood. The materials cost 50 gp. The creature’s master may assemble the body or hire someone else to do the job. Creating the body requires a DC 12 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 12 Craft (pottery) check.
After the body is sculpted, it is animated through an extended magical ritual that requires a specially prepared laboratory or workroom, similar to an alchemist’s laboratory and costing 500 gp to establish. If the creator is personally constructing the creature’s body, the building and ritual can be performed together.
A homunculus with more than 2 Hit Dice can be created, but each additional Hit Die adds +2,000 gp to the cost to create.
Craft Construct, arcane eye, mirror image, mending, caster must be at least 4th level; Price — (never sold); Cost 1,050 gp + 78 XP.


CONSTRUCTION
A shield guardian is built from wood, bronze, stone, and steel. The materials cost 5,000 gp.
The creature’s master may assemble the body or hire someone else to do the job. Creating the body requires a DC 16 Craft (blacksmithing) or Craft (carpentry) check. The keyed amulet is fashioned at the same time, and its cost (20,000 gp) is included in the cost of the guardian. After the body is sculpted, the shield guardian is animated through an extended magical ritual that requires a specially prepared laboratory or workroom, similar to an alchemist’s laboratory and costing 500 gp to establish. If the creator is personally constructing the creature’s body, the building and the ritual can be performed together. A shield guardian with more than 15 Hit Dice can be created, but each additional Hit Die adds +5,000 gp to the market price, and the price increases by +20,000 gp if the creature’s size increases to Huge, modifying the cost to create accordingly.
CL 15th; Craft Construct, limited wish, discern location, shield, shield other, caster must be at least 15th level; Price 120,000 gp; Cost 65,000 gp + 4,600 XP.

Now as I read it for a golem is subjected to a dispel it’s magical properties are suspended for 1d4 rounds. Basically it cannot move or act. Whether or not it reverts to a lump of material or just stops moving is up for interpretation. But since The characteristics of a golem that come from its nature as a magic item then none of them should work if the construct is subjected to a successful dispel magic.

As far as the magic immunity property of golems it only works against spells that are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic is not. So it should work.

If anyone can find something more specific please point it out to me since this is indeed an intriguing question.

 

[dcollins]

No, golems are not treated as magic items for anti-magic (like dispel magic, et. al.) effects. From the SRD under "Special Abilities: Antimagic":

Golems and other constructs, elementals, outsiders, and corporeal undead, still function in an antimagic area (though the antimagic area suppresses their spellcasting and their supernatural and spell-like abilities normally). If such creatures are summoned or conjured, however, see below.

From the FAQ, under "Monsters":

You can’t disjoin a golem because a golem is a creature,
not a magic item or magical effect.

Anything that has both a Charisma score and a Wisdom
score is a creature, not an object. Mordenkainen’s disjunction
would destroy any magical effect a golem was using, such as a
slow effect from a stone golem.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

No, golems are not treated as magic items for anti-magic (like dispel magic, et. al.) effects.

So, how is Dispel Magic an anti-magic area?

 

[FEADIN]

No Dispel Golem, they are creatures, you don't Dispel creatures, you can kill them, destroy them but the magic that created them is gone (like instantaneous spells), it is created, he "is".
You can Dispel spells on a creature but there is no such spell as "Animate Golem" that you can dispel to stop him.

 

[ElectricDragon]

How about this?
In the SRD under Special Abilities: Antimagic:

Antimagic does not dispel magic; it suppresses it.

And yet the golem still retains its mobility and Extraordinary abilities. The magic of the golem is not suppressable, something dispel magic does to magic items.

Note that only the Homunculus has no caster level included in its entry. All other constructs that have a Construction paragraph include these two things: "CL:xxth", and "caster must be at least xxth level" The two numbers always match for some strange reason.

From the SRD under Golems:

Creating a golem is essentially similar to creating any sort of magic item.

Clearly this means that a golem is not actually a magic item.

Ciao
Dave

 

[irdeggman]

From the SRD under Golems:
Quote:
Creating a golem is essentially similar to creating any sort of magic item.


Clearly this means that a golem is not actually a magic item.

Ciao
Dave

The remainder of the text goes on to state

Creating a golem is essentially similar to creating any sort of magic item. However, a golem’s body includes costly material components that may require some extra preparation.

The use of 'however" usually means that the exceptions follow, which in this case are "costly material components and some extra preparation".


The other text

The characteristics of a golem that come from its nature as a magic item

Pretty much points in the direction of it being a magic item.

The FAQ issue about Disjoining a golem is the one that causes me to pause though. Even though it is pretty specific about causing a golem to fall apart it does tend to make the case for not being able to use dispel magic on a golem. Although there is enough counter evidence to at least raise the question for further discussion and thought.