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D&D General Why is tradition (in D&D) important to you? [+]

Tradition in an RPG for me are the elements, themes, and even mechanics when they direct a style of play. D&D is cooperative gaming in a heroic mode. You start off as peasants, townies, apprentices, and street urchins, and you grow into living legends. It's the Hero's Journey played out together as a group. When people complain about 4e saying "the characters start off too powerful", this is what they mean. And even though I liked 4e I understand those concerns and agree. D&D is geared towards adventure. This is why I don't like rules for crafting magic items. You should be adventuring for them, or at a minimum, questing for rare or even unique ingredients. When we make changes we could be moving away from D&D and into another genre.
 

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How much of the edition churn has really been driven by dissatisfaction with the rules, though, as opposed to a corporate need to turn a profit or some other not-rules-related reason?

1e came out in large part because Gygax wanted to cut Arneson out of the picture.
2e came out through a combination of TSR profit-seeking and a knee-jerk response to the Satanic panic.
3e was in large part due to dissatisfaction with what 2e had become, along with the new owners' desire to put their own stamp on the game.
3.5e was pure profit-seeking, and unnecessary.
4e was pure profit-seeking, and unnecessary.
5e was largely a corporate response to another corporation stealing a large chunk of the market.

And the whole idea of letting otherwise-competent people go from a company just because they are old is abhorrent.
The reason for making new editions was motivated by making money, sure. But once that was decided... rules got changes that just did not serve the purposes of players anymore. By the time 2E came about there were dozens, if not hundreds, of other RPGs that had been released to market, and all of them moved the potentiality of RPGing away from the rules Basic and AD&D had (like for instance the idea of having actual skills / non-weapon proficiencies). So the new rules invented across the spectrum of gaming that were worthwhile and which gamers found to be useful were begun to be incorporated into new editions of D&D so as to make the game better or at the least keep the gaming trending towards modernity. That is how games always evolve. Sometimes the changes end up being good and/or popular, sometimes they aren't. But no RPG is going to stay exactly the same edition after edition, because there'd be no reason to buy it.

And as far the last point... people were never let go specifically because they were old. They were let go because their salaries were higher than the company felt they could afford to keep. And how did they have such higher salaries? By sticking around with the company long enough to become "older" employees. I mean, an easier way to keep your job as you get older is to just refuse all salary increases. You do that... your company has one fewer reason to move on from you. But who actually does that? No one. So if you are going to work in an industry where the margins are apparently thin enough that the number of employees and their total salary value has to be gone over with a fine-toothed comb... you have to be prepared to be released as time goes on as you get older because you are making more money that a newer employee would (and if your abilities in game design are not substantially better than any newer employee that it would be worth the loss). Based upon the numbers of people who are former TSR and WotC D&D department employees... they have all seen it happen time and time again.

Unless of course your name is Chris Perkins. That guy must be some sort of sorcerer with a box full of incriminating Polaroids based on how long he's been able to stay with the company while everyone else moved on or got let go. ;)
 

I think the 6 ability scores are one of the traditions that work, although dex in the current iteration is far too good. I guess if we got rid of con people would have a reason to invest in strength. :)
And these are exactly the good questions to be asking: both "is the fundamental concept we use functional?" (where the answer generally seems to be "yes") and "is the current implementation of that concept free of fixable issues?" (where you and I agree the answer is "absolutely not.")

I would absolutely welcome an edition playtest that honestly, seriously asked the question: "How should the six stats work? Can we change them in a way that makes them effective?" It's why, for example, I very much appreciated that 4e included a Con-based skill: Survival (which 5e moved over to Wisdom for some reason). Because, as it stands, we have two ultra-uber stats (Dex and Wis) and one or two that kinda fall behind (Int and sometimes Str), with the other two being incredibly variable in value. Dexterity and Wisdom either need to be toned down, having some of their features forked out into other stats, or the other stats need to be treated in a way somewhat similar to Charisma, where it normally doesn't do a whole lot, but specific contexts (like Hexblade) allow Charisma to do things it normally can't.

I could absolutely see, for example, giving Monk or Barbarian bonuses or features that relate to their Con modifier, for example (since the latter already has a way to use Con for AC). Swapping Survival back to using Con, and finding other small ways to address its limits, would help a lot. Similarly, baking in new uses for Strength (e.g. making Intimidate key off the better of Cha or Str--sometimes words are what threatens, and sometimes muscle is what threatens) would help shore up its relatively weak position, as would switching back to the "3 saves" model but incorporating the 4e innovation of counting the best of two stats (in this case, Str or Con goes to Fortitude, Int or Dex goes to Reflex, and Wis or Cha goes to Will). Under those lights, it becomes more reasonable to have, for example, a low-Con Fighter with high Strength and Intelligence, as they use their battle acumen as an active defense, rather than being too quick to hit.

I guess I was just trying to point out that I don't envy the developers because there will always be compromises. One person's tradition that makes the game what it is will be another person's sacred cow.
Unfortunately, yes, this is true. You can please some of the people all of the time, but honestly I'm not even sure if it's possible to please all of the people some of the time, let alone all the time. Whatever choices you make, someone will be upset. Perhaps that's why they decided to go ahead with big changes in 4e. If someone's gonna be upset literally no matter WHAT you do, might as well try to address as many issues as possible, yeah?

(I personally still think that presentation was 75% or more of the problem with 4e, and that if it had had another year in the tank, preferably spent ironing out remaining wrinkles, writing better adventures than the naughty word-awful early ones, and producing books that preserved the "old parchment" look and feel possibly with some tweaks to how powers are presented, a lot fewer people would have balked. But that's speculative.)

Bonus tradition I like: the relative lack of gunpowder. Which is really odd considering the technology level required for things like plate armor, I think it makes the game more fantastical.
Oh yeah, being only incredibly loosely related to actual European anything is A Thing for this whole genre, not just D&D. People today think, for example, of King Arthur as someone who would've worn full-body, gleaming, polished steel plate armor....even though he lived about 800-900 years too early for that. By the time plate armor started to appear on the scene (early-mid 1400s), cannons had been used in sieges both offensively and defensively in Europe for some 50-75 years, minimum, and we have artistic depictions of "handgonnes" as early as 1326 (with the possibility that a now-lost actual "handgonne" was found dating to 1322, almost a full century before full-body steel plate armor came into practice.) And within another century or so, you started having knights with guns, often called "cuirassiers," like the following image from Wikipedia:
Pappenheim_Curassiers.PNG


I am of course sure you know all this, given you mentioned it in the first place, just throwing it out there for folks who might not know yet. Our constructed "medieval Europe" fantasyland is just as fictitious and ahistorical as the implied setting of things like the Seven Voyages of Sinbad or Journey to the West, a fictive amalgam of a dozen different elements, many of which never coexisted, or excluding elements that pre-date elements one emphatically wishes to include. It's part of why I get so very annoyed when people make arguments like "Monk doesn't belong! It's not European!" Because we already aren't actually playing in Europe, we're playing in a fictional space that takes bits and pieces from over a thousand years of European and nearby nations' histories and sutures them together willy-nilly regardless of historicity, the sequence of events IRL, or any semblance of effort to create a stable economy or agricultural base or the like.

Hence why I said, earlier, that an aesthetic tradition really can't be argued with--but it also shouldn't be argued as though it were rooted in objectivity either. De gustibus non disputandum est: "of taste there can be no argument," but that swings both ways, taste doesn't rise to the level of argument, nor do arguments hold water against it. They play on different fields.
 

It's difficult for me to compare the two. But I could maybe say, try to change the official colours of a sport team and see how the fans react.
A case study for that could be the Vancouver Canucks, who in their 50-year existence have changed their colours - wholesale, not just little tweaks - something like 6 or 7 times. They've also changed their logo three times.

Every Canuck fan has a specific favourite set of colours and-or logo, but we all still cheer for the team! :)
 

A case study for that could be the Vancouver Canucks, who in their 50-year existence have changed their colours - wholesale, not just little tweaks - something like 6 or 7 times. They've also changed their logo three times.

Every Canuck fan has a specific favourite set of colours and-or logo, but we all still cheer for the team! :)
A lot seems to depend on why the changes are being made. People may miss colors, but if there's a sniff of politics in the reason, they won't let go. I guarantee there are people who will not let go of the Washington Redpotatoes simply because they're reacting to the 'wokeness' of the reason. My old high school team went from Indians to Pumas and the way people who are in my age category cling to Indians you'd think that the change was murdering their puppies, children, and grandparents all in one go.
 


I enjoy when tradition gives a community a common language. (Standardization.)

I also enjoy when the community learns from tradition in order to update it for new situations. (Innovation.)

Some traditions that I cared about, I dont anymore. For example, it mattered to me that D&D races came with ability improvements to mechanically encourage certain flavorful options. I appreciate the social reasons for discontinuing that, and agree. At the same time, the mechanical benefits of allowing the player to choose whatever ability improvements are enormous. There turn out to be many a number of things I found problematic (Charisma elf, relatedly tall "dvergar"), that were were suddenly fixed by the new approach to D&D races. Regarding the term "race", I find it increasingly burdensome now, and hope "species" replaces it in the future. The point is, these were a tradition that I invested in, but now am glad without it.

I have to think about what I truly require every iteration of D&D to include:



D&D traditions that I care about:
• Magic, Various Methods
• Magic, Innate Psionics (zero material components, zero external dependence)
• Homebrew Multiverse Building
• Mind Style (theater of the mind)
• Cooperative Game (friends help each other overcome challenges)
• d20
• Abilities (each describes talents that one tends to be good at even without training)
• Abilities (but please, fix the abilities! disambiguate them, balance them!)
• Playable Nonhumans
• Elf (sky), Dwarf (land), Gnome (blend)
• Giant, Ogre, Dragon
• Advancing Levels and Tiers
• Hit Points (mainly fatigue until half hp, mainly marks until zero hp, then deadly)
• Customizable Class Features

There is probably other stuff I take for granted, but the above list makes a game feel D&D.
 

How much of the edition churn has really been driven by dissatisfaction with the rules, though, as opposed to a corporate need to turn a profit or some other not-rules-related reason?

1e came out in large part because Gygax wanted to cut Arneson out of the picture.
2e came out through a combination of TSR profit-seeking and a knee-jerk response to the Satanic panic.
3e was in large part due to dissatisfaction with what 2e had become, along with the new owners' desire to put their own stamp on the game.
3.5e was pure profit-seeking, and unnecessary.
4e was pure profit-seeking, and unnecessary.
5e was largely a corporate response to another corporation stealing a large chunk of the market.

And the whole idea of letting otherwise-competent people go from a company just because they are old is abhorrent.

From my perspective, 4e is what jettisoned vancian spellcasting, finally understood how mechanics work as an ecosystem in order to balance classes, obliterated the convoluted mechanics of prestige classes, required features to be thematically salient, simplified DM responsibilities, and other healthy decisions.

4e was a bitter pill for some, but for me, it is what the doctor ordered.
 

I am satisfied how 5e has one-off world settings, while making it easy to plug-and-play adventures into any setting.

I prefer having EVERY mechanical rule in one book. This is somewhat true in 5e where the Players Handbook includes everything that a player (and a DM) needs to know to run a game. However some of the necessary information, such as exploration and adjudicating skills for social reaction, spills over into the DMs Guide, but needs to be in the Players Handbook. Such a hassle jumping back-and-forth for clarification! The Players Handbook is more helpful when multiverse agnostic and world agnostic. Rely on the DM to purchase or create a setting for the Players.

The DMs Guide is great for worldbuilding advice. Move multiverse settings data out of the Players Handbook and keep all setting assumptions here in the DMs Guide. ALL religious stuff belongs here too, as part of worldbuilding. Generally, D&D needs a "kitchen sink" approach to religions. Then let the DM decide on any religious beliefs or customs that are setting specific (multiverse, world, regional, or local setting). I like magic items in the DMs Guide (and theyre a mechanical incentive to purchase the book).

I am flexible yet prefer dividing up monsters by planes − Ethereal (including Fey, Shade, and Elemental) and Astral (including Celestial, Fiend, and Aberration), and by official world settings (Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Darksun, Ravnica, Ravenloft, Strixhaven, etcetera). But of course encourage the DM to plug-and-play into any setting.
 

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