D&D (2024) Why is wotc still aiming for PCs with 10 *real word* feet of range? W/o vision range penalty/limit rules for the GM?

[UngainlyTitan]

Note that that picture is CUT grass right? You can pretty clearly see that that grass is cut.

Even modern infantry warfare very, very rarely begins engagements at 200 yards. Effective range for an M-16 is 300 yards and most combat occurs at much, much shorter ranges than that. Armored combat and of course airplane combat is a whole different beast. But infantry combat? 100 yards or less most of the time.

Heck, look at the sites of pre-modern battles. Most of them aren't a whole lot bigger than a football field. Some, sure, agreed, they are bigger and I'm sure that people will furiously type examples at me. But, in general? No, combat is very, very rarely occurring at those kidns of ranges.

This is not quite true. Individual engagement would be at those ranges but armies might decide to give battle with the other force was several kilometres off

 

[tetrasodium]

I’m sorry, but any player who acts with the level of resistance that you describe kind of is a problem player.

Are you seriously claiming that if a player ever misunderstands the situation as described and makes any effort whatsoever (no matter how slight) to undo or avoid the negative result of that misunderstanding to any degree they are a problem player? Or are you saying that the GM should rule their table with a heart of ice & shrug off any such disappointment as the price of spending time playing at a real GM's table?

You yourself gave a trivial example of how things snowball & did it as if it was a contrasting one of perfectly reasonable behavior. That's also the same kind of friction I've been talking about.

Then I’d say your players have unrealistic expectations. Expecting you to map out to that extent is not reasonable. I use VTTs all the time, and preparing that amount of mapping isn’t as easy as you say (unless you are literally scribbling on the fly).

The players experience the world through the DM, whether description or drawing, and it’s never going to be perfect. So, of course I’ve heard “oh, if I knew that, I wouldn’t have…”. I’m sure we all have. In which case the DM says, “that’s fair, what would you have done”, or the player just needs to accept that communication isn’t perfect and the game moves on. Again, I guess if you are playing with strangers, there is less incentive for them not to be belligerent.

Anyway, I love making maps for my players. But if they expected the level of maps yours seem to, I’d have burnt out long ago. Or switched to a game that doesn’t use maps at all…

That bold bit is all it takes to start the snowball from Alice to Bob to Cindy. Maybe Cindy is quiet this time and just wants to get on with things but next time she wants to avoid the whole mess & very reasonably asks the GM to flick their mouse but a flick of the mouse means that it's no longer in ToTM & the GM now has a battlefield that is still up to about 20 feet worth of table space despite scrolling due to the design of various abilities. At no point in that has anyone acted unreasonable, the only unreasonable element in that exchange is the abilities with 600feet of range & the system's failure to provide the GM with tools for mitigating that.

 

[Reef]

Are you seriously claiming that if a player ever misunderstands the situation as described and makes any effort whatsoever (no matter how slight) to undo or avoid the negative result of that misunderstanding to any degree they are a problem player? Or are you saying that the GM should rule their table with a heart of ice & shrug off any such disappointment as the price of spending time playing at a real GM's table?

You yourself gave a trivial example of how things snowball & did it as if it was a contrasting one of perfectly reasonable behavior. That's also the same kind of friction I've been talking about.

That bold bit is all it takes to start the snowball from Alice to Bob to Cindy. Maybe Cindy is quiet this time and just wants to get on with things but next time she wants to avoid the whole mess & very reasonably asks the GM to flick their mouse but a flick of the mouse means that it's no longer in ToTM & the GM now has a battlefield that is still up to about 20 feet worth of table space despite scrolling due to the design of various abilities. At no point in that has anyone acted unreasonable, the only unreasonable element in that exchange is the abilities with 600feet of range & the system's failure to provide the GM with tools for mitigating that.

No. I am saying any player that gives you problems to the degree you are describing is a problem. Misunderstandings happen. The DM has to clear it up and make a decision. Sometimes its in the players favour, sometimes its not. That's the way the game works. And always has.

The amount of grief you describe is not normal. And no amount of mapping will prevent it if they are that combative. The DM and the players are not meant to be adversaries.

Although I have to say, after reading all of this, I have a better understanding of why in the DMG thread you were asking for more clear rules in the PHB telling players they had to cooperate.

 

[Reef]

Just to add, @tetrasodium, if this is what you are dealing with regularly, you must have the patience of a saint. Seriously, a much better person than I am. It would have driven me to quit long before. So, I salute you for that!

 

[tetrasodium]

No. I am saying any player that gives you problems to the degree you are describing is a problem. Misunderstandings happen. The DM has to clear it up and make a decision. Sometimes its in the players favour, sometimes its not. That's the way the game works. And always has.

The amount of grief you describe is not normal. And no amount of mapping will prevent it if they are that combative. The DM and the players are not meant to be adversaries.

Although I have to say, after reading all of this, I have a better understanding of why in the DMG thread you were asking for more clear rules in the PHB telling players they had to cooperate.

I think you are either moving the goalposts or have misinterpreted something very badly & you aren't giving enough details to discern or correct. Can you quote any specific examples of players that you feel are over the top or problem examples?

 

[codo]

With respect, I made corrections to that argument once my errors were presented to me.

That is still kind of a problem on a forum like this. It doesn't really help the situation in any way, because the people participating on this thread have no reason to go back and reread your original post. If you are going to go back and edit an old post, you should really make a new post explaining the changes you are going to make, so everybody is on the same page. I feel like you are getting frustrated because people are still using your original argument and not you new one. People aren't doing it on purpose, they just don't know you have edited you original post.

 

[Reef]

I think you are either moving the goalposts or have misinterpreted something very badly & you aren't giving enough details to discern or correct. Can you quote any specific examples of players that you feel are over the top or problem examples?

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to shift goal posts. I obviously must be greatly misunderstanding the situation. From reading this thread, what I've gathered is:

1) Your players are constantly misunderstanding the details of a scene. This is causing them to demand do-overs, which starts with one player and spirals out (you cited this specifically).
2) This is disruptive enough that you feel you are under pressure to map out the battlefield far beyond what anyone else in the thread is suggesting. Going so far as to say you need to map out every square out to the extreme end of longbow range. Any suggestion that you use TotM for the extreme end of the range and only map out the immediate battlefield apparently won't satisfy them.
3) This is enough a problem that you started a thread to complain that the ranges in D&D are problematic and need to be shortened, for this reason alone.

Am I wrong in that? If I am, I apologize. As I think I mentioned, I've been having a hard time following.

I'm sorry if I've offended you, or called into question the behaviour of your group. It's just that my understanding of the situation as (I thought) you were describing went far beyond what I've run into when it comes to misunderstandings. Which obviously happens, but I've never seen them spiral out of control like you are describing.

 

[tetrasodium]

another aspect of this is the loss of run speeds.

In 3e, you could run at 120 feet (barring heavy armor slowing you down, which could be corrected with magic). so encounters in the 300-500 range could be bridged in a 3-4ish rounds. Now that's not ideal by any means, but it is an option. Now in 3e you could get insane with distance bows and the like, but again meleers at least had a bit more options in most circumstances.

In 4e, you had the ability to add +10 to speed on all movement, so could move 80 feet a round. Longbows at 200 feet were the longest thing in the game I believe range wise, so 3 rounds to close.

In 5e, your at 60 feet speed, so 5-8 rounds to close the big distances, a pretty big increase.

There was another big 3.5 difference that impacted things positively for the melee types too. There was

Spoiler: attack

Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.
Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any
opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered
adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in
their descriptions in Chapter 7: Equipment. With a typical reach
weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can’t strike
adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and
head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for
the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of
opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed.
The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed
attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, as
shooting a bow does, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity
from an unarmed foe. You provoke the attack of opportunity be-
cause you have to bring your body close to your opponent.
An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s
unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with
the Improved Unarmed Strike feat (page 96), a spellcaster delivering
a touch attack spell, and a creature with claws, fangs, and similar
natural physical weapons all count as being armed. Note that being
armed counts for both offense and defense. Not only does a monk
is deducted from the target’s current hit points. If the opponent’s hit
points drop to 0 or lower, he’s in bad shape (see Injury and Death,
page 145).
Multiple Attacks: A character who can make more than one
attack per round must use the full attack action (see Full-Round
Actions, below) in order to get more than one attack.
Shooting or Throwing into a Melee: If you shoot or throw a
ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly char-
acter, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll because you have to
aim carefully to avoid hitting your friend. Two characters are
engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either
threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized
character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being
attacked.)
If your target (or the part of your target you’re aiming at, if it’s a
big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character,
you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you’re aiming at is
engaged in melee with a friendly character.
Precise Shot: If you have the Precise Shot feat (page 98), you don’t
take this penalty.
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to
fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty
on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same
round. This bonus stacks with the AC bonus granted by the Combat
Expertise feat (page 92).
phb139/140

Spoiler: and Full Attack

Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack
bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a
double weapon (see Two-Weapon Fighting under Special Attacks,
page 160), or for some special reason (such as a feat or a magic item)
you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You
do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You
can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later
ones.
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot
step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high
enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to
lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either
weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with
either part of the weapon first.
Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first
attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your
remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out. If
you’ve already taken a 5-foot step, you can’t use your move action to
move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move
action.
Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose
to fight defensively when taking a full attack action. If you do so,
you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge
bonus to AC for the same round.
Cleave: The extra attack granted by the Cleave feat (page 92) or
Great Cleave feat (page 94) can be taken whenever they apply. This
is an exception to the normal limit to the number of attacks you can
take when not using a full attack action.
3.5 phb143

Spoiler: Move action

MOVE ACTIONS
With the exception of specific movement-related skills, most move
actions don’t require a check.



Move
The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this
kind of move action during your turn, you can’t also take a 5-foot
step.
Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this
category, including climbing (up to one-quarter of your speed) and
swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).
Accelerated Climbing: You can climb one-half your speed as a
move action by accepting a –5 penalty on your Climb check.
Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs
attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any
point of your crawl
phb145

Plus reloading a hand/light crossbow was a move action & a heavy crossbow was a full round action. The ranged character couldn't call for the group to kite back with them because it would only be 5 feet/round if they wanted to fire more than once per round. So the melee types are moving forward at 120ft/round, the opponents are moving in at ~30-120feet per round & the two combine to somewhere in the 60-240feet of close per round. Even if the archer is shooting at zombies or something with similar AC for goodplausible odds on that -6/-15/-20/-25 for first second third or fourth attack at the max 5 range increments it's probably only going to be a round or two before the martials are carving it up in melee & the odds at hitting with those max range penalties were so low it was pretty much nat20 or nothing. Later in the session (or in the same combat even) the ranged character might need to drop to a single shot so they can take a move action & flee more than 5 feet to avoid provoking an AoO every shot so nobody felt too put out about that one round bob got in a free shot that maybe connected while the group & opponents were closing.

@Reef I have no idea where you got "constantly" from in point one. I tried a few synonyms like regularly, always, repeatedly, & frequently but none of them are in posts from me unless they are someone adding those things in their own reply to a post that says nothing of the sort, me quoting one of those posts, or a coincidental match like a statement about regular & composite bows matching in the search. points two and three are so linked to the mistake in point one that I don't think I can correct them.

 

[Reef]

There was another big 3.5 difference that impacted things positively for the melee types too. There was

Spoiler: attack

Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.
Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any
opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered
adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in
their descriptions in Chapter 7: Equipment. With a typical reach
weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can’t strike
adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and
head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for
the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of
opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed.
The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed
attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, as
shooting a bow does, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity
from an unarmed foe. You provoke the attack of opportunity be-
cause you have to bring your body close to your opponent.
An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s
unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with
the Improved Unarmed Strike feat (page 96), a spellcaster delivering
a touch attack spell, and a creature with claws, fangs, and similar
natural physical weapons all count as being armed. Note that being
armed counts for both offense and defense. Not only does a monk
is deducted from the target’s current hit points. If the opponent’s hit
points drop to 0 or lower, he’s in bad shape (see Injury and Death,
page 145).
Multiple Attacks: A character who can make more than one
attack per round must use the full attack action (see Full-Round
Actions, below) in order to get more than one attack.
Shooting or Throwing into a Melee: If you shoot or throw a
ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly char-
acter, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll because you have to
aim carefully to avoid hitting your friend. Two characters are
engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either
threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized
character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being
attacked.)
If your target (or the part of your target you’re aiming at, if it’s a
big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character,
you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you’re aiming at is
engaged in melee with a friendly character.
Precise Shot: If you have the Precise Shot feat (page 98), you don’t
take this penalty.
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to
fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty
on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same
round. This bonus stacks with the AC bonus granted by the Combat
Expertise feat (page 92).
phb139/140

Spoiler: and Full Attack

Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack
bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a
double weapon (see Two-Weapon Fighting under Special Attacks,
page 160), or for some special reason (such as a feat or a magic item)
you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You
do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You
can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later
ones.
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot
step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high
enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to
lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either
weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with
either part of the weapon first.
Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first
attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your
remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out. If
you’ve already taken a 5-foot step, you can’t use your move action to
move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move
action.
Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose
to fight defensively when taking a full attack action. If you do so,
you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge
bonus to AC for the same round.
Cleave: The extra attack granted by the Cleave feat (page 92) or
Great Cleave feat (page 94) can be taken whenever they apply. This
is an exception to the normal limit to the number of attacks you can
take when not using a full attack action.
3.5 phb143

Spoiler: Move action

MOVE ACTIONS
With the exception of specific movement-related skills, most move
actions don’t require a check.



Move
The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this
kind of move action during your turn, you can’t also take a 5-foot
step.
Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this
category, including climbing (up to one-quarter of your speed) and
swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).
Accelerated Climbing: You can climb one-half your speed as a
move action by accepting a –5 penalty on your Climb check.
Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs
attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any
point of your crawl
phb145

Plus reloading a hand/light crossbow was a move action & a heavy crossbow was a full round action. The ranged character couldn't call for the group to kite back with them because it would only be 5 feet/round if they wanted to fire more than once per round. So the melee types are moving forward at 120ft/round, the opponents are moving in at ~30-120feet per round & the two combine to somewhere in the 60-240feet of close per round. Even if the archer is shooting at zombies or something with similar AC for goodplausible odds on that -6/-15/-20/-25 for first second third or fourth attack at the max 5 range increments it's probably only going to be a round or two before the martials are carving it up in melee & the odds at hitting with those max range penalties were so low it was pretty much nat20 or nothing. Later in the session (or in the same combat even) the ranged character might need to drop to a single shot so they can take a move action & flee more than 5 feet to avoid provoking an AoO every shot so nobody felt too put out about that one round bob got in a free shot that maybe connected while the group & opponents were closing.

@Reef I have no idea where you got "constantly" from in point one. I tried a few synonyms like regularly, always, repeatedly, & frequently but none of them are in posts from me unless they are someone adding those things in their own reply to a post that says nothing of the sort, me quoting one of those posts, or a coincidental match like a statement about regular & composite bows matching in the search. points two and three are so linked to the mistake in point one that I don't think I can correct them.

Like I said, I've obviously misinterpreted. I thought the whole point about you feeling pressured to constantly map out the battlefield (which I thought was the whole point of your thread) was due to player misunderstandings. If that's not the case, I'm back to not understanding what the mapping issue is, and I will therefore bow out completely.

I have to admit I'm embarrassed I've somehow missed the mark so badly.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Battlemats made by off the shelf chessex range from 23.5x26inch (1.95...x2.16.. ft)to 48x36(4ftx3ft). PCs shouldn't have abilities that make them look like inappropriately sized hacks. With a VTT capable of scaling to support an unreasonably huge battlefields of space that the GM now needs to both fill and manage the herculean task of running anything that might be in it without just roflstomping their players with a zerg rush using the soon to be forgotten possible extras they are wasting time & brainpower on throughout the combat rather than creating an interesting combat.

How huge? roughly one empire state building on it's side by one empire state building on it's side. That is an excessive burden in the extreme.

Why not make the VTT generate the details? A good VTT should be able to accept GM input stating something like "fill in the quarter mile between the road and the farmhouse with rough terrain: wheat fields in the process of growing and occasional rocks, trees, or creeks."

Isn't the whole point of VTTs that they can be customized via plugins/etc.?

If that's not supported you can always just tell your players the above, and ask them to ask you to insert rocks and creekbeds anywhere important that they imagine them. (Any region neither you nor the players care about is fairly safe to ignore.)