Why Jargon is Bad, and Some Modern Resources for RPG Theory

I’m acknowledging that on a website practically, if not literally, dedicated to D&D that terms from D&D can more easily be assumed to have wider usage. Not sure why that is controversial or bother you.
I look at it this way, if one is engaging in a discussion of game design or play in a theoretical and general sense, which is often the case when stuff like GNS terms come up, it would behoove one to learn this terminology, would it not? I mean, nobody expects the people posting on "How tall is an Orc?" to grok 'Scene Framing' as a term, or even have thought of the concept at all. So, if you dropped a post there which used the term, you probably better explain it. OTOH if the OP of a thread is discussing the degree of/implication of 'gamism' in 5e D&D, I think its pretty reasonable for posters to use these sorts of terms. I agree that 'hit points' is something pretty much everyone in such a thread will have at least some passing familiarity with, and 'High Concept Simulationism' probably deserves a bit more introduction. However, I agree with earlier posts which pointed out that terms like 'railroading' or 'player authority' probably should ALSO be explained, though they don't happen to be recognized to belong to any one particular 'school' or other.
 

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I think it is worth considering exactly where this terminology came from. It was merely some mutually agreed upon words that were being used in a very small and restricted community of posters. It would be like saying we in this thread hash around for a while and hit upon a few words we use in a certain way. Now, TWENTY FIVE YEARS LATER this thread is being referenced by some totally other people, talking about some games that didn't even exist back then, and someone is exercised about how they used a word back there and then. Now, admittedly, FROM THERE, some people took those terms and ran with them, because they were talking about the same issues. Are we really going to spend endless hours debating how those other people (maybe us) are unwise fools because we used terms that already existed and someone else doesn't like that usage and finds it confusing? I mean, nobody in any of all this discussion has ever, to my knowledge, stated that they were hostile to the existence of/use of different terminology, if it was more effective. I mean, the final observation is, if you were to talk to, say, Ron Edwards, right now and start throwing Forge Speak at the guy, I highly suspect he'd just roll his eyes and tell you to pack off. The people that invented these terms ABANDONED THEM at least a decade, often 2 decades, ago. What more can you ask?
It’s just that this makes it hard to know where to start with specific jargon, especially since so much of it happened on forums and blogs. So then you go back and try to read some of those things, but being the internet, discussions are disarticulated across a variety of spaces, many ephemeral. Thus, knowledge is ubiquitous and easily available and also, somehow, always missing context. So it sort of needs to be recreated or reexpressed again and again.

Tangent, but I feel this is only going to get worse. Like in the OSR, supposedly a lot of knowledge was lost when google plus went away (I was never on google plus because…well…it was google plus), and now a lot of discussion happens on blogs that few people read and on discord, an even more ephemeral platform.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
It’s just that this makes it hard to know where to start with specific jargon, especially since so much of it happened on forums and blogs. So then you go back and try to read some of those things, but being the internet, discussions are disarticulated across a variety of spaces, many ephemeral. Thus, knowledge is ubiquitous and easily available and also, somehow, always missing context. So it sort of needs to be recreated or reexpressed again and again.

Tangent, but I feel this is only going to get worse. Like in the OSR, supposedly a lot of knowledge was lost when google plus went away (I was never on google plus because…well…it was google plus), and now a lot of discussion happens on blogs that few people read and on discord, an even more ephemeral platform.

I will continue to post the following:

Tabletop RPG Design in Theory and Practice at the Forge, 2001–2012. William J. White. Available at amazon and others (expensive). Best academic work on the Forge, for those interested.

At some point, I am hopeful that one of the people here that is so fond of discussing GNS theory will get the book and publish a review of it. I mean, I know it's "academic" and therefore (like the other links I post) not to be used, but c'mon.

Here is the Amazon link.

I know it's expensive since it is a textbook, but (1) the kindle version is cheaper, and (2) you can get a paperback.

Here's the description-
This book provides an introduction to the Forge, an online discussion site for tabletop role-playing game (TRPG) design, play, and publication that was active during the first years of the twenty-first century and which served as an important locus for experimentation in game design and production during that time. Aimed at game studies scholars, for whom the ideas formulated at or popularized by the Forge are of key interest, the book also attempts to provide an accessible account of the growth and development of the Forge as a site of participatory culture. It situates the Forge within the broader context of TRPG discourse, and connects “Forge theory” to the academic investigation of role-playing.
 

Since it's literally what inciting incident means, yes...much better to use the proper term for the thing than making up a new word that has to be repeatedly explained.

It's just so weird to me. If you're going to design a game that's supposed to be more about story, literally the first place you'd look is storytelling. But apparently not.
And I would dispute that 'inciting incident' is more 'correct'. Writing and RPG design/play theory are two totally different topics. Why do you assume that we must use the terminology YOU happen to prefer and that this is the only correct term? 'Kicker' is a perfectly cromulent and succinct term for what we're talking about. It is an incident in the immediate past of a PC which provides an impetus to action. I don't think 'Inciting Incident' would be bad, maybe its better, maybe not, but surely written fiction is not exactly identical to RPG play and to demand that all our terminology is taken from a topic you seem specifically familiar with seems, well, demanding! I mean, I'm sure other people can come up with other terms that happen to be used by people here in RPG discussions which could be found to be close cognates to ones used in various other fields. I bet movie makers have their own term for an inciting incident for example.
 

Definitely also a frustrating framing!

Sure, but people also need to be on the same page about that encoding for the analysis to be productive. Otherwise you end up with… Well, online forum discussions.

Maybe it helps people who don’t enjoy that kind of play to conceptualize it in a way that makes sense to them. And I think that’s what makes it feel so condescending. It seems to exist to explain to people who really love the style of play it defines as Narrativist, why anyone would like those other, non-Narrativist types of games. But the explanations it gives seem not to resonate with a significant portion of people who do like those sorts of play, which indicates to me that it’s probably missing something.

As a simple analogy, imagine I love vanilla ice cream and hate chocolate and strawberry, and I invented a theory explaining the three Flavor Agendas, which I called “Fruity,” “Dark,” and “Rich,” and claimed that ice cream can only serve one flavor agenda at a time. An ice cream can involve multiple Flavor Agendas, like if you put chocolate chips in your strawberry ice cream, but that only allows you to shift back and forth between Flavor Agendas, you can’t actually combine chocolate and strawberry, that would create an Incoherent Flavor. So well-made ice cream should really try to understand what Flavor Agenda it’s serving and try to focus on serving that as best it can, rather than trying to combine flavors. Also, I explained the Fruity Agenda as being about reproducing the flavor of a specific fruit as accurately as possible, the Dark agenda as being about emphasizing intense, low flavor notes like bitterness and earthiness, and the Rich Agenda as being about accentuating the mellow, creamy, dairy notes… People might think I was missing the mark on why they enjoy their favorite ice cream flavor. Especially if it’s Neapolitan.
Well, for instance, Edwards (AFAIK) doesn't ever really discuss a desire to remain constantly in Actor Stance as a part of an agenda. This is something that is frequently brought up, or the slightly less extreme version of it where players desire not to engage in 'out of fiction' thought process. GNS, like any analytical tool, isn't meant to cover all bases. It does DESCRIBE salient features of how you go about process simulation, and points out quite effectively some ways it differs from other techniques. This further leads into reasons why some games do one or another thing better.

I don't think that Edwards' choice of agendas is arbitrary, as you may be trying to imply though. There are several points where he has gone all the way down to bedrock "what are people doing and saying at the table" and listed ALL the options, and then built a theory from there. Your 'ice cream theory' would likewise be pretty fundamental if it showed that there are only 3 possible 'flavor agendas' by appealing to the techniques by which ice cream is made and thus demonstrating those are the possible choices, inherently. Now, we can argue the quality of Edwards' observations, or any other theory's basis, and that's a perfectly legitimate activity. It does require more than just complaints that the categories used don't suite one's tastes though! It really requires following the argument you are criticizing all the way down to its fundamental axiomatic structure and showing that either the thesis doesn't follow, or that those axioms are inapplicable/flawed/incomplete in some way. I have yet to see anyone actually do that with GNS.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
And I would dispute that 'inciting incident' is more 'correct'. Writing and RPG design/play theory are two totally different topics. Why do you assume that we must use the terminology YOU happen to prefer and that this is the only correct term? 'Kicker' is a perfectly cromulent and succinct term for what we're talking about. It is an incident in the immediate past of a PC which provides an impetus to action. I don't think 'Inciting Incident' would be bad, maybe its better, maybe not, but surely written fiction is not exactly identical to RPG play and to demand that all our terminology is taken from a topic you seem specifically familiar with seems, well, demanding! I mean, I'm sure other people can come up with other terms that happen to be used by people here in RPG discussions which could be found to be close cognates to ones used in various other fields. I bet movie makers have their own term for an inciting incident for example.

Maybe this would be helpful- earlier in the thread, in addition to the use of "kicker," the use of the term "bang" came up.

Now, later on, @Campbell explained as follows:

"Kickers and bangs come from Sorcerer, one of the most influential indie games. They form the basis of its play structures. ... Bangs are events that force players to make a dramatic decision for their character. They are moments of crisis where players have to choose who their characters really are as people through the choices they make. In Sorcerer players are responsible for trying to resolve their kickers. GMs are responsible for creating bangs that make that difficult."

So a few things. The first is this- I can understand why Campbell understands that Sorcerer is well-known, and I would even stipulate that it is an influential indie game. Here's the thing though ... what percentage of people do you think that visit enworld (not regular participants in the forums, but visitors) are familiar with Sorcerer?

Less than 10%? Less than 5%? Less than 1%? Less than .1%? So ... while I think Campbell's attempt there is genuinely helpful, we see the recursive effect of jargon. Of course people should understand what a bang is, because it's a Forge term that came from Sorcerer! And everyone knows Sorcerer and should be able to discuss the gameplay mechanics in it- after all, it is one of the most influential indie games ever!

...but if you weren't already involved in the Forge, you probably don't know what Sorcerer is (or, at best, have a vague understanding of it as a game from a long time ago that was part of the Forge stuff). And that's what it all keeps getting back to- all of this not only builds on itself, but refers back to itself. For people that are already invested in this theory, these games, and these terms ... it can all seem rather obvious! For anyone else, you might as well be speaking Greek.

So when you say, "Why don't you use this term that we use to describe X," the unstated premise that you aren't saying is the identity of the "we."

You don't have to use "inciting incident." But others don't have to use "kickers" either. The Forge, and GNS, did not obtain a monopoly on verbiage or jargon. It's only useful to the extent that it help people understand the concepts. If your terminology is helpful, then other people will use it. And if it's not, they won't.

(A further issue is the extent to which some of the jargon is both re-inventing the wheel and also needlessly confusing by using terms that mean different things to most people than how they are defined. But that's a separate issue.)
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
It really requires following the argument you are criticizing all the way down to its fundamental axiomatic structure and showing that either the thesis doesn't follow, or that those axioms are inapplicable/flawed/incomplete in some way. I have yet to see anyone actually do that with GNS.

Extraordinary statements (there are ONLY three reasons people play TTRPGs) require extraordinary proof.

Let me know when there is ... you know, actual empirical proof through studies or surveys of players*, and not just people saying so.


*Even something as basic as the one I provided the link to earlier.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
As I posted, the scenes are independent of one another. So what difference does it make if the players rather than the GM chooses the sequence?
That depends on the specifics, perhaps; but if, say, there's something to be learned/found at scene 2 that would make a difference in how scene 3 plays out then there could be a significant difference in play if the sequence goes 3-2 than if it goes 2-3. The DM doesn't know which sequence will be followed; she just has to react to what the players end up doing, present and run the scenes in whatever sequence the PCs reach them, and be ready for scenes to potentially play out unexpectedly or differently based on what other scenes the PCs have already hit.

Contrast this with the DM trying to force scene 2 to come before scene 3 so that the PCs will have that [whatever] such that scene 3 will play out how she envisions it. I think we agree, in principle at least, that this is less desirable.
And suppose that it was linear, why would that matter? What interesting property of the scenario would that be pointing me to?
It wouldn't, which is kind of a tangential point here: linear adventures/dungeons are IMO and IME generally less interesting for all involved* than are looping ones; with branching ones somewhere between.

* - less interesting for the players as there are fewer choice points and a risk of feeling led by the nose whether such is the case or not; less interesting (though maybe easier) for the DM due to the run of play being far more predictable.
 


Re: linear

I think it’s most helpful in thinking of adventure design for games like DnD, CoC etc. Sometimes quite literally, as in how a text is organized and laid out and how that helps out a reader.

 

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